I think Jes is neither Salamander nor the destroyer.
Like Malini said, Salamander has dark skin and, yes, he could have used gypsy dye but I dont think he would have acess to it.
The destroyer is Elspeth's equal so has very good powers, and is probably an orphan. I know that sounds like Jes but Isobelle may have put down a red herring just to get us excited.
I really hope Jes is alive and evidence points both against and towards that theory.
I'm unsure as to my opinion because:
1. Elf would have probably seen Jes on the Dreamtrails.
2. Isobelle seems to love bringing back characters-Daffyd, Rosamunde, Swallow, Iriny-and Jes would sort of fit into that category. To me at least.
The problem with bringing Jes back now, though, is that we haven't heard anything, not even a hint of him or anyone who might be him with a different name since Obernewtyn, and that, in Elf's terms, was what... six years ago or something? That's a long time to drop off the map and then suddenly pop up again. All the other characters who've come back came back were at least talked about in the book following their first introduction (and I mean in more than a passing reference, which is all Jes has recieved).
That being said, I think I heard someone state the rule as: they're only dead if Elspeth sees a body. I don't think it's impossible for Jes to come back, but if he comes back as anything important (ie, the Destroyer, Salamander, the Kasanda Blood, etc) I'd be a bit disappointed. If he is alive, then I expect he was taken to a Herder Cloister and, from there, fell into Ariel's hands and is now a Null or otherwise under Ariel's control. A sort of last-resort plan Ariel's keeping in reserve.
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
The only way I'd be happy to see Jes come back would be as a null. Ama I think you're right to say that he would have been taken by the herders but I think he's dead and should stay dead. The US version of Farseeker (I think) did elaborate on his death more than the original version which convinces me that he is. Isobelle is always tight lipped on this subject as well as many others but she has said in the past that he is dead, then might have changed her mind once or twice. I think if he was going to return it would have been in TSK.
I would love it if Jes was alive! I think it would be a really interesting development.
However, I do think that if he is alive, he won't have a very important part to play. I used to be convinced that Jes was the Destroyer, but then I heard about Isobelle's letter in which she said that Jes was definitely dead. Even if she changed her mind later and decided to bring him back, I don't think she would give him a major role. She said she's known who the Destroyer is from the very beginning. So it can't be Jes, because she was planning to make him stay dead. And I'm pretty convinced about who Salamander is as well (and I don't think it's Jes). :P
I would love it if Jes came back to life - his relationship with Elspeth was so tense and complex that I found it one of the most intriguing relationships in the whole series. (You know... how in some ways he wanted to protect her, but then really he was only thinking of his own ambition and well-being. And how their relationship changed throught the years... Him turning from a loving and protective brother into an aloof stranger. I thought it was really interesting, and I would love to see what would happen if they ever met up again).
But I doubt that Isobelle will bring him back at all, actually. Becuase as Deb said, one of the few changes she made to Obernewtyn was to make it very clear that Jes had been shot in the head and died. So unless the whole thing was just implanted in Rosamunde's mind (which is possible), then I don't think it's going to happen... :-{
14 years ago
Sun Oct 18 2009, 03:44pm
Yes, up until TSK I really held out hope he'd be returning, but by the end of the book I got the strong sense that the plot just wasn't moving in that direction. The focus now seems to be on getting to the Red Land and finishing the Quest - if Jes were going to return, I think it would have been during the takeover of the Land or Herder Isle, since those were the likeliest places for him to have been hiding/imprisoned.
If he comes in now it would probably be too off-track, unless he serves some really crucial purpose - which is where the null theory comes in, I guess. But someone has said in the past - I think it was Min? - that if Jes was really going to be central to the final story, IC wouldn't have decided he was dead and then changed her mind, because he would have been important to the story right frm the start. Unless IC's plan for the ending has changed substantially since she began the series, which I suppose is possible - but I still think his part in the scheme of things is too small for a return now.
I still kind of wish he'd make an appearance, though. I am irrationally fond of him, for a character who only makes a few (not particularly positive) cameos in the first chapters and then never appears again. I suppose I just felt there was too much left unsaid between him and Elspeth (plus he just had so much potential, as either a good guy or a bad guy!), and would like some kind of closure or reconciliation between them. Maybe they can meet on the dreamtrails and clear up all their misunderstandings at last! I am a sap. x_X
EDIT: Heh, Avialle beat me to posting. ^_^ Sorry to repeat some of what was just written. Great minds think alike, I guess. :P
Ashlings' guildleader
14 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
I think that if Jes were to show up again, there would also be a possibility that he was a slave in TLOTRQ as well as the null possibility. That would both put him in the right place and explain why he didn't turned up in the last four books - he wasn't even on the continent! :P
Yes, that was something that occurred to me too, when I was thinking about why he wouldn't have surfaced by now if he was on Herder Isle or the Land. I like the idea that he's been in LotRQ, but I can't really think of anything in the books that actually supports that - there have been no hints of it, at least none that I recall, and it seems like something that would have been foreshadowed. In itself I think it's a valid possiblity that Jes might have been sold as a slave, but in terms of what's actually in the text, it doesn't really seem to fit with what we're given...
I think that if Jes wasto appear again in the later story, Rosemunde (his admirer) would have more scenes and a larger part in the story. She would have convos with Elspeth about "What happened to Jes?" and even might be seem more around Obernewtyn generally.
If Jes was the Destroyer, it would be a surprising ending! I agree with Sian and Firefall, if he was to show up again because he has been in LotRQ, but it doesn't seem to fit from what we last heard of him...there is no evidence.
14 years ago
Mon Oct 19 2009, 06:04pm
I thought Rosamunde had a new love interest, though? A futureteller...Var-something? Can't quite remember.
Perhaps Isobelle's mention that Jes may come back could be in reference to her mentioning him in the books, and not his character physically appearing again. Elspeth does mention Jes in TSK briefly, wishing she could stop in Kinraide and lay some flowers on her brother's grave. The mention he's coming back could have been nothing more than that? :-/ though I understand it's probably a long shot that is all that's behind it.
Dreamweaver Ward
14 years ago
Mon Oct 19 2009, 10:08pm
Dreamweaver Ward
Dreamscape Artist
Yes, Rosamunde's apparently involved with Varda. I think he was one of the futuretelllers working on the Moonfair tapestry in TKP?
I'm with Avialle and Firefall in being intrigued by Jes's character and his relationship with Elspeth, and wanting them to meet again so we can see what would happen.
That said, I too seriously doubt that Jes is going to miraculously reappear alive. And if he does, I'm betting he's either a null or has been driven insane beyond help by the Herders. (I'm so optimistic at the moment. :P) I just really don't think that Elf and Jes will get to reunite and resolve their issues and be happy - sometimes life just doesn't work like that, and besides, Elf has mourned his death and moved on with her life. As IC said in her interview for Obernet, The Sending is connected to the past, but in relation to the Beforetime - I think we'll be more likely to see Jacob Obernewtyn (though only on the Dreamtrails).
I am sure I posted somewhere that he might be alive! because Rosamonde never went to see his 'dead' body
I really want Jes to be alive, but the more I read this thread the more I realise the chance of him being alive is slim.
Maybe if Jes is brought up again, it's cause he somehow had something to do with one of the seven signs... somehow ???
Funnily enough i've always assumed he would come back! this sounds weird i know but i guess it all stems from a dream i had after finishing TKP, before TSK came out, where Jes was with a group of solidergaurds in an area much like where the misfits were betrayed by Malik, but it always seemed real enough to me that i assumed i had read it! you can imagine my suprise when i re-discovered the series later to find that the event never actually occured, along with the part i dreamt about Elspeth leaving for her Seeker quest with the animals into the blacklands.
Anyway i still, years later am unable to get these two things out of my head, so i'm still sure that Jes will return, despite any evidence against this- how irrational!
I wish I had such good dreams about the ober chron :| I always get weird dreams or unrelated ones ::)
14 years ago
Thu Nov 05 2009, 03:29pm
I'm all for Jes being alive (partly because I have a crush on him and don't want him to be dead.) I mean what a waste of Talent and an intersting character otherwise!
Ooh! I can't wait to read about the Beforetime. I bet IC will link up the origin of the BOT system arising somehow with the world having global warming, and people forming carbon trading blocks; and that's how the conglomerate region specific Uber powers form and then since they're so powerful they have to form BOT and *babbles on excited* *ahem* (that's a bit off topic though)
I would love if Jes came back, I somehow always thought he would turn up somewhere.
I think that if he does turn up it will be either on the red queens land (taken by slavers) or he'll talk to Elf on the dreamtrails.
I don't think he is the destroyer, I once thought that salmanda was the destroyer keeping in mind that I believe salmanda is jakoby's sister, which would make her a kasanda like some in the earth temple, who knows what other talents they might have.
(I might be wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that IC said the destroyer was not necessary bad??? Or didn't know they were the destroyer?? But obviously whoever knew at the end of TSK)
Oh, love the Jes is a null theory. He could have been one of the very first that Ariel ever experimented on when he got his hands on the Zebkrahn-type machine.
I'm thinking that maybe when writing the Sending, IC just needed a character to fill a gap and thought 'hey, Jes would work', and so brought him back to life. This would help explain why we haven't seen more than occasional mentions of him since the end of the first book.
If that's the case, Bibilophile, I think I'd be really disappointed, unless she comes up with a really good backstory for him that explains why he hasn't even turned up in Elf's dreams since his suppoesed death... the only explanation I can think of, even after all this time, is that Ariel turned him into a null... maybe a null who breaks his programing and warns Elf about what Ariel's up to, thus giving hope that the rest of the nulls can be saved. I could accept that has a role for him, I think...
I always wanted Jess to come back. I think it will bring out a side in Elspeth that most of the others havent seen before, which will be interesting to see. I think the others see Elspeth as something maybe non-human, in the sense that she keeps herself mysterious and aloof, and because she is so cold and unresponsive. i think it will be good for some people to see that she is actualy just the same as them, albeit with a bigger destiny.
But then maybe thats just me. ~:| |:(
14 years ago
Thu Jan 07 2010, 03:39pm
that makes sense bananamonkey, and i have to agree with you with that. as to all of the previous mentions of Jess being the Destroyer, he can't be. It is obviously Ariel, and in TSK Elspeth even mentions it, and the character references says he is the Destroyer, too. I also agree with those who are saying Jess might be a null, but it would probably be really painful for Elspeth, and dont forget, i dont know what Jess would do when Elspeth left on her journey. I'm already getting tears ready for when she has to leave Rushton - Rushton and Elspeth all the way!!
So maybe it would be better if Jess doesnt come back. :(
14 years ago
Thu Jan 07 2010, 03:46pm
Actually, IC say's Ariel ISN'T the destroyer (which is sad. I really wanted him to be, 'cause he's so awesome :D ). He is 'one who destroys' which is, apparently, not the same thing. She says the identity of the destroyer will be a surprise, but a 'oh we should have guessed' type surprise (which means some of us have probably already guessed, but those who have will be surprised they were right :P ) IC has also said that the destroyer is in the first book, and may not know they are the destroyer/actively try to be the destroyer, and that what happens in the end is something of an accident. Did I miss anything?
From what we've guessed, Ariel somehow manipulates the destroyer into being the destroyer. So, if Jes were a Null, that would fit nicely. However I don't want Jes to be the destroyer, simply because he hasn't been in the books much and so it wouldn't have quite as much of an impact if, say, Dameon or Rushton were the destroyer.
*goes throught TSK* butbut....*looks at character references* o_O maybe i'm just going mad. personally i reckon Ariel would definately suit the Destroyer, and i really hope rushton, dameon, matthew, or one of the well loved characters arent the Destroyer, even if it DOES make sense for someone well loved to be it, i would be devastated. Who is the destroyer then, if not Ariel, and not Jess?
Well I think it makes sense that Jess is a null. The last we hear of him is that he supposedly dies while fight so as not kidnapped and taken to herder isle. Maybe the herders just made it looked like he died so as to cover it up. Therefore he would have been in the perfect place to become a null when Ariel arrived at herder isle, and, because he is under Ariels influence for so long, he becomes the destroyer.
On the other hand, if IC sais it is someone who will surprise us, and that the people who guessed in the first place would be surprised they are right, then surely it wont be Jess because so many of us have guessed him that we have almost taken it for granted that he would be the destroyer. why would we be surprised if it was Jess?