12 years ago
Fri Nov 04 2011, 05:20pm
Not too spoilerish Jacqui - not a major catastrophe! Don't worry about it, a mod'll fix it. Come to think of it, you could probably fix it. In the top right hand corner of your post, there's a button that looks like a pencil on paper. That means you can edit it. What you want is only one lot of spoiler brackets, but to place your text in the middle of that one. ie. [ spoiler ] Text here [ /spoiler ]
Hope it helps - and welcome aboard!
Edit: lol Sian we both tried to help at the same time!
12 years ago
Fri Nov 04 2011, 06:29pm
Ahhh, that was such a great book!!!! XD
Analivia is a midwife, she mentions it several times. Considering this, does anyone think that Elspeth is pregnant? She slept with Rushton, and then Analivia just casually mentioned that she's well trained as a midwife. I mean, come on! Isobelle wouldn't just go on about how Analivia is a midwife for no reason; if Elspeth wasn't pregnant then she would have just said that Analivia was a healer or that she knew about herb lore. I think (although I would hate that plot line) that it's pretty likely since Ana hasn't really had a main part in the "Quest", but if Elspeth was pregnant then having a midwife would be essential!
Also, I was expecting Rushton to propose to Elspeth for most of the book. I think Carmody spent a little too much time in the first few chapters talking about how everyone was getting bonded/ was already bonded/ was proposing to each other. I think there were a few too many hints about that.
I think that the thing about Mathew and Ariel/the Destroyer being ill at the same time isn't suppossed to cast doubt on whether Ariel is really the destroyer, but I think that it just hints that maybe there's a plague in the Red Land at the moment or a sickness, and that's why only 4 ships will be needed to conquer a whole land (without Dragon). If everyone was sick they're not going to put up much of a fight, are they?
And how annoying!! That was one of the most annoying cliffhangers ever. They took so long to get to the city, I think we deserve to find out what happened next. I mean, the part where it was just Elspeth, Maruman, Galtha and Darga travelling together got SO boring after a while. But all the other bits were great. :)
I think the efari are possibly robots. If not they are probably cryogenically frozen people from the beforetime, because there was a lot of talk about cryogenics. And maybe they are somehow linked to the "white-faced lords" (or are the white faced lords). I think there are a lot of similarities between these two peoples.
"You will never return to the Burud". This could mean: Elspeth will die (Isobelle is well known for sad endings in books, I wouldn't be suprised if Elspeth just died); Elspeth will be too badly injured to make the journey home; Elspeth will not want to go home; Obernewtyn will be destroyed; Elspeth will return as a "new woman" (eg, you have not returned as Elspeth, but as a different person because this quest has changed you); she no longer considers Obernewtyn as her 'burud'; and that it is Obernewtyn Shire now, not Obernewtyn.
I loved the first "part" of the book. I always love reading about everyday life at Obernewtyn. And the Elspeth/Rushton love story was great. :)
Also, the cover for the Red Queen looks AMAZING!!!!! Very different from the others, but still amazing. We'll need to start a countdown to the Red Queen now. :P XD XD XD
Mystic Ward
12 years ago
Sat Nov 05 2011, 08:39am
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
lol Sian, and Loren, I just fixed it and was going to say the same thing. You beat me to it.
that should fix the sidebar so...
I can honestly say that I loved this book, but I did think it started out a bit slow. I understand that a bit of back story or fill in has to happen though so I expected it. And while I thought it was a bit slow, I also (at the same time) really enjoyed being back at Obernewtyn and seeing Elf interacting with others there.
I'm impatient to know waht is going to happen next and Isobelle still won't tell me what Swallows real name is :P but I really don't wat the story to end.
Wayla, Congrats on the baby!
Just keep squeeing, just keep squeeing, squeeing about The Sending! La la la la la, oh we love to fill the sidebaaaaar!
I definitely agree, we need to start a Red Queen countdown :D
Also I understand what everyone is saying about some things not living up to expectations, but although it seemed like I may have complained a bit I actually loved the book and wouldn't change a thing. The great thing about all of Isobelle's works is that they continually leave room for speculation but the writing and the end result is always better than (I) hoped. I was reading some of the responses and I felt horrible because it seemed like I was complaining when actually I nearly screamed at one of my classmates when she looked over at me stuck in the Sneding and said she didn't like the OberChrons. -_-
It's interesting to hear that perhaps not everything seems to be "set in stone". I always thought there had to be some way to get Elspeth back to the Land (or at least Rushie :D), and futuretellers and even the Agyllians even said so themselves that they leave things out when they tell people of their predictions, so that it doesn't influence the final outcome.
I also wondered too if Elspeth could be pregnant! It was never something I personally thought of but it's possible, especially because Analivia did mention more than once she was trained in midwifery. Hmm... [act]speculates[/act]
One thing that I noticed was the first dream with Cassy talking about being cyrogenically frozen, and then after Elspeth having a dream of the Beforetime woman in some sort of pod/box and she couldn't get out. So I was thinking... wildly... that Cassy could have been frozen! It would explain why she didn't die in Sador, that she just 'vanished'... Dun, dun, dun!
^Aw yay, thanks for taking the time to film and upload this!
thanks iszy for posting that for those of us who couldn't attend :D
I had a quick thought about the rushton/elspeth mindmeld, and the comments that were made about how he seemed to learn everything about her, and she didnt really learn much about him...
I was wondering, would it really be fair for her to learn all of the things he knows about others? that seems like a violation of everyone at Ober's morals, (not reading the deep thoughts of others etc) and perhaps when that kind of meld occurs, each partner is only allowed to see the other's true thoughts/memories, rather than getting to know everything they know about everyone else... because if this was the case, the whole thing would be less intimate...
because it would appear that rushton learned about her quest, which is the deepest personal secret she has, and she saw his mum and his journey to ober, who/which he never talks about, and his memories of/about her...
i just had this idea, because its supposed to be the most intimate thing a couple can do, and she says as much in farseekers when she's threatened with bonding to relward... and it would make sense if what you learn from the other is also only the deepest thoughts/feelings...
12 years ago
Sat Nov 05 2011, 06:47pm
Just a question
On all the Daemon is madly in love with Elspeth stuff
Has this ever been confirmed?
Edit: Just checked the encyclopedia and IC herself did confirm it.
My question was inspired by a truly random and thought (I blame it being 1am) i had while reading
The scene where Elf witnesses Daemon's return to Obernewtyn through Rushton's eyes.
My brain just goes "wouldn't it be funny if Daemon was really in love with Rushton, and the flash of anger is resentment for Rushton relying so much on him (calling him his conscience etc) without really giviing him the relationship he craves.
\
As I said, completely wierd and random.
Moderator edit.
Fill sidebar fill!
No-one seems to have mentioned this yet. Didn't the leader of the Brildane told Elspeth that some of the wolves would die by the end of the journey and that not all of her own pack will stand beside her. Is it possible that none of her fellow travellers will actually die but instead refuse to help her deactivate the Sentinal/BOT machine, and therefore not "stand beside her".
To fill or not to fill: that is the sidebar!
Who knows. IC has proved to be good at finding loopholes in her prophecies an din the things that others (beasts AND humans) tell Elf. I wouldn’t be surprised if she changed the meaning of the words somehow, though I doubt her friends would refuse to stand beside her. More likely she will be separated from them, or will carry on without them when she knows she can do it alone. She might prohibit particular people from coming, i.e. dragon because she would probably still be very frail (or because she’s busy leading the red land); Dameon because he is blind (though I seriously doubt that will happen); and (the most likely - in my opinion) Analivia, coz she’ll be pregnant with Swallow’s child - and if that does happen he might stay behind with her; and maybe rasial would be too concerned for gavin, and wouldn’t let him. Dunno, but it’s better than thinking that they will die.
12 years ago
Sun Nov 06 2011, 04:17pm
@ Sian:
The thing is that the exact quote from Isobelle's interview is "I said its not who you might think it is. So who you think it is in the final book may not be who you think it is now." She never says that it isn't Ariel. You're just assuming that she meant that it's not Ariel because she said you would change your mind. That means that you might have thought it was Ariel, then you changed you mind and decided it was Mathew, then you changed your mind again and so on. It doesn't directly say that everyone's origional guess was not right. You could be right, or she could just be trying to throw you off. Just be aware that she never said that Ariel was not the Destroyer.
Also, what I was saying in my post above is that if you assume that Ariel is the Destroyer, then that would mean that both Ariel and Mathew are sick at the same time, which would hint that maybe there is a plague in the Red Land at the moment. This would make it possible for 4 ships to stop the slavers, and thus make Maryon's prediction true.
12 years ago
Sun Nov 06 2011, 04:52pm
Haha, okay. I'm glad we're on the same page now. :)
Anyway, regardless of who the Destroyer is, my main theory is that there is a plague or sickness of some sort in the Red Land, and because of this only 4 ships will be needed to defeat the Slavemasters. Cuz, frankly, if everyone's sick then they're not going to put up much of a fight, are they? :P
Lilac, I have to say that your idea has some merit.
You are right that now that Dragon is stuck with Elspeth there will need to be some other excuse for four (or given the ending of TS possibly less) ships being able to win. I can just imagine them getting there and saying to the slaves:
"Yes, you should finally rebel."
"Why?"
"We have come to return your lost Queen!"
"Well where is she?"
"We lost her." :$
I just had a premonition today and please anybody correct me if I'm wrong
but i thought maryon only said that by sending 4 ships to the red land that it will prevent the slavemasters invading the land, not that they will actually overthrow the slavemasters.
So what if that only means that the people on the 4 ships get taken contain prisoner as soon as they reach the red land and there are enough people aboard to fill the number wanted by the white faced lords, therefore no need to invade the land.
And then it is up to Dragon with Elspeth to, somehow, journey to the red land to lead the red landers to rise up and free everyone.
What do you all think?
And sorry If someone has already come up with this I haven't read all the theories yet
Ashlings' guildleader
12 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
That's a really good point mangos
I do think I remember reading on one of the blurbs for the American additions that they get captured, but I've only just managed to forget them, so I'm not about to looking for them again :p . I'm not sure they'd be enough to fulfil the quota though, because I don't see why they'd bother taking the entire land and Sador into slavery if they didn't have enough work for all of them, they'd just end up having to kill the rest because the wouldn't be able to sell that many quickly enough and feeding them all would get expensive. I think it's more likely that Dragon will need a network of people she knows amongst the Redland slaves when she finally gets there.
12 years ago
Mon Nov 07 2011, 07:36am
hmmmmmm not finished yet but I just needed to say
It really bugs me how Ariel is so often called 'defective' in this book. Its confusing as the word has also been used to describe Annalivas' brother and Mr Seraphim (whose first name escapes me at the moment) who Alexi and Vega manipulated so that I assumed it was meant as being 'simple' for want of a better word. But to do what Ariel has done does not strike me as someone who is 'simple' surely he could not have carried out all this planning and plotting if he was. To me he is simply evil. So unless there turns out to be someone manipulating Ariel at the end of the book much like Alexi and Vega did, which to me doesn't really make sense as Ariel was described as being defective in the first book as well if I remember correctly.
By the way I have never thought and still don't think that Ariel is the Destroyer so I guess he could be someone who is being manipulated.
|:|
And I really hope we find out Swallows real name before the end.
oh and
as I'm a sucker for happy endings I think that the 'Elspeth will never to return to Obernewtyn or the land' posts throughout this book means she and certain companions will find some settlement under the sea or more likely in space ... the moon perhaps given all the focus on the moon and the observatory etc. But I really should finish the book before I comment further ;) and make myself look silly
And I should stop reading these spoilers to see what everyone else thought until I do also...but I know I wont :)
Mystic Ward
12 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Classic Question...
defective has been used to describe those people who have a number of physical and mental mutations, Ariel I think is defective because his talents are twisted, not because he is slow.
for anyone who is interested...
I did the math for how many nights/days pass from when she leaves to the time that she is captured by the efari (and it appears to be all documented throughout that time), and its only 26 days... so for all those who are hoping for a Elspeth/Rushton baby, it could actually be possible, highly unlikely, but possible...
but on that note, how powerful would that child be with rushton's capacity (like that of 100 people? i vaguely remember a comment to that effect in ashling) and elspeths power, and it'd be automatically connected to her so could thus enhance her power, could you imagine a mindmeld between it, elspeth and rushton? haha! that'd be awesome... and VERY powerful...
hahaha! just thought I'd throw that piece of unlikely theory into the mix for fun :D
ps. could the new elder be astyanax?
Here's a theory...
There's still a radiation suit at obernewtyn which hasn't been used. Also Elspeth gave Fian the script from the sword to translate but never got a translation from him. I'm thinking perhaps Fian might get sent to rendezvous with them via a more direct route. Of course it's possible that Fian and/or the suit could also come back by being on one of the ships and meeting in the red land, but surely they will come back because, well, conservation of detail.
12 years ago
Mon Nov 07 2011, 04:48pm
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................................................. Interesting Ashalinde
Really? Only 26 days? Huh. And not everyone has classic symptoms (i.e. morning sickness), and if it HAS only been a month her stomach wouldn’t be any larger than usual. Plus, why else would IC bother making Analivia a midwife (plus, if Elf IS pregnant then Analivia might be able to, partially anyway, train the others in how to help in midwifing, so when she has swallow’s baby she’ll have help). Another thing to support this: elf’s body heals itself, and so it might ‘heal’ the symptoms she would have had, which would make her very tired throughout the sending and the red queen . . . so when you reread, look for unexplained tiredness! - on another note though, what if her body heals itself of the baby? That would not be nice.
As to the baby (if there is one) being highly Talented, I don’t doubt it, and if this is what isobelle has planned, I’m sure that it will play a very significant part in the next book. Perhaps the baby has some unknown power, which is the REAL reason that Elspeth is the only one who can stop SENTINEL, because she needs her baby’s power to disable it, but the baby wouldn’t have been able to do it later on in life because the circumstances needed to be correct and maybe Elspeth would have refused if she had known that her child would have to die (because I think that is that will happen; the baby will exhaust itself or the use of it’s power in that way would drain it, and it would die). That would be an awesome ending. Or maybe it’s the opposite, and the baby is the destroyer! Lud, that would be awesome. Of course I have no evidence, but it’s probably the least likely one to choose, so of course IC will choose it over other options (ahh, the logic of O-Chron)
It would be cool if the new elder was Astyanax, and I did think of him while I was reading the bit where Straaka is telling Elf about the old elders, and he would be a much better choice than a random Aggylian that we have never heard of - plus, who doesn’t find him awesome? If he hadn’t stuck up for Elf when she was dying she WOULD have died. Also, he was the first Aggylian we met. So yeah it would be awesome, though it might change his character a bit if he has all the voices of other elders behind him, but still, cool. Nerat is another option, and possibly more likely, as he is already part of the council of aggylians, but I would prefer Astyanax; I admit - it IS partially because of his awesome name.
So this is my first post EVER. Goodness.
I hope this is long enough for the Sidebar...
Okay so I may be lynched for this, but I was a bit disappointed by this book. Don't get me wrong, there were moments of sheer brilliance, howeverafer waiting so very very long, I expected more. I felt like with some great editing this could have been reduced right down to a much smaller and more potent book. I REALLY dislike being retold elements of previous books for several chapters, if necessary, have a summary of this stuff in a separate section at the back or front of the book that people can skip over if they are up to date or obsessive. I feel like all of the previous books have had a lot of action but this one didn't. I know she couldn't shortchange the long epic journey but there are ways of making something like that stretch out without having to read that much. I felt like the pace was cranking up in TKP and then it slowed right down to snail speed in this book. The momentum of building up to the end of the whole series was set up and then ripped down. But I guess what I am most irritated about is that she ended it with a cliffhanger, and an annoying one at that. I was expecting a serious payoff at the end of this book, that was what was built up, and after years and years of delays to be left with yet another "Elspeth is knocked out moment" right before a big payoff just made me angry. Seriously, none of the other books have ended in this way and I felt ripped off. To have an entire book about a journey to a place and then to end it before you get to that place is really frustrating. A journey without an end (well, at least for another year, and seeing how delayed the last few books have been, in reality that could be 3 years), it felt impotent. Anyway, end rant. Onto the rest of my thoughts on this.
Daemon - Ah okay, so have I been blind because, although I picked up a few hints in this book that Daemon may have feelings for Elspeth, I have never spotted it anywhere before. Have you all known this for ages? Are you assuming from those few hints in TS or is this something everyone is positive about? Because there are surely other possibilities for Daemon's reactions and IC often goes in a different direction to what is the obvious assumption. In any case, I love Daemon too much as a character to even consider that he might die. I guess that anyone is up for it but I sincerely hope it isn't him!
Maruman - So what I have put together is that Maruman is a cat from a VERY long time ago, in the Beforetime. I assume that he was experimented on (perhaps in a similar way to the birds) accounting for the strangeness of his mind and the bandages on his head in that flashback/dream. I also assume he was periodically frozen and unfrozen, as Dr. Ruth mentioned. This would account for him popping up as a kitten at very different times and for his amazingly long lifespan. This would also explain some of the things said about him in the dream/flashbacks. What if he developed his amazing strength on the Dreamtails when he was kept in stasis? It would be a great time to practice! And yes, I am aware that the "hand" pushing down would prevent that kind of thing, but maybe his altered mind found a way around that?
Hannah, Jacob & Jnr - I too assume that Hannah had a child, that it was her carved in stone in TKP, that she has been dreamed about by Elspeth repeatedly and that she was the moon watching ancestor of Rushton. I assume she was the old lady trekking after Jacob. I am not sure if she and the others would be in stasis, it would seem a bit too wrapped up and easy if they were. Hmmm...
Rushton & Elspeth - wow. I had always kinda assumed that they had sex already but that IC had skated over the specifics. Poor dude must have been SO frustrated! I just assumed that naked romps in hot springs and numerous hot embraces on ships and in tents were followed by sex. Dopey old me! IC never actually specifically said before that they didn't have sex, so I assumed that they did. Interesting... Anyway, I assume that the bond forged is a result of the absolute closeness formed between them from sex and a complete and total mind merge. I think it brilliant that it links them over all distance and I like the idea someone mentioned above about it possible being a way of tracking the group when all other talents fail. In the end I think this link will make all the difference. Perhaps there will be a moment harking back to the very first book, where Rushton supplied Elspeth with the strength to overcome what Ariel and co. were inflicting on her. There would be some beautiful symmetry in that.
Matthew - I'm not sure here. I, along with Elspeth, had always assumed that Ariel was The Destroyer but then I believe IC said that he wasn't necessarily. So yeah, I guess Matthew is a good option. Perhaps his sick spirit is seeking out Elspeth on the Dreamtails unconsciously as she is his best friend and the way to save him and the other slaves and the one who will bring Dragon. Perhaps all of his emotions about this are roiling up into that storm cloud that is mindlessly attacking her. He wouldn't consciously realise the damage he would cause her if he caught her. Matthew was always curious about technology and he is impulsive. Well, whatever it is, I sincerely hope he comes out of everything okay, I miss that kid!
Cassy - curious... where did she die? SO many options here!
The Efari - I think the robot idea is really really interesting, but I tend to think that it is a human in a suit. I think there could be a variety of things going on here but my main thought is that these are Beforetimers that have been in and out of stasis and continue to patrol. There is a possibility that they they are all sterile - much like the Gadfians. I would think that the survivors of the Great White and their descendants would have a greater natural resistance to nuclear fallout than people who had survived purely because they were in shelters/stasis. Evolution demands it really. Anyway, if I had survived something like that and there was still taint, not to mention winds that can blow worse taint towards you, I'd wear a suit everywhere! I assume that they knock everyone out as a defense measure. Shoot first, ask later! They must have seen some pretty hectic behaviour before, during and after the Great White/Nuclear Holocaust so it would probably be safer to neutralise all possible threats immediately. As for what they then do to them, they could be in stasis for many reasons. I like the idea of freezing all healthy life forms for a cleaner time. It'll be interesting to see how much they know about the rest of the world as it currently is.
The Eden Project - I like the idea that this could be linked to the free running barud. Not sure if it is here at this city or perhaps buried under the Red Land somewhere... Pretty cool things could happen from this anyway!
The Red Land - I just assume that Elspeth, Dragon and co. will use some Beforetimer technology (eg: airplane-type thingy) to get there. The Dragon reveal once there should be VERY interesting!!
Rhenlings (however you spell that) - I guessed they were mutated bats very early on but maybe that's because I've watched a few bat docos lately? Anyway, that whole bit was pretty awesome. I could almost smell them!
The journey to the Red Land - I really like that we are learning about it just in bits via the Elspeth/Rushton connection.
Angina's Death - seems very significant to me. Sad but perhaps necessary so that Elspeth could realise all sorts of things and so that she could create and learn to use the Black Sword.
The Stone Sword - still totally undecided on this. Seems a bit clunky for a beforetimer key? Hmmm...
That's all I can think of for now, may have more later.
Cheers!