Mystic Guildmistress
15 years ago
Mystic Guildmistress
Mage
Wow! So many posts lol. And long ones at that :P
Just going with the arguments already mentioned:
1. Learning from the past: Ignorance may be bliss but I'd rather be knowledgible than not know anything at all. And technology comes from knowledge, technology is usually an accumulation of ideas wrought into one design/device. Therefore technology comes hand in hand with knowledge and through the tecknoguilders, the misfits actively seek knowlegde of the beforetime, along with its technology. They obviously don't think the past should stay in the past.
2. Why would technology make us lazy? I mean the beforetimers would have had cars and things which would have limited their walking, but this technology can get you alot furthur than horses can in a shorter time. They wouldn't have to take boats everywhere, afraid of pirates and the like. With beforetimer technology they could explore the rest of the land, and find places completely free of taint. They could find new places to live, even more technology to better their lives. And how do we even know that the techniology to be uncovered will turn out into all the negative? It is entirely possible that the land people will remember the mistakes of the past and not exceed what they were trying to do in the first place. There is a line that I'm sure they would not want to cross.
Also, if there's more security, how do we knwo that will increase distrust? More likely if everyone has security, they can feel more safe in their surroundings, and feel more at ease with the people around them. They wouldn't have a reason to distrust people if they weren't acting suspiciously and they already knew their stuff was completely secure.
3. Yes they have culture, but their culture is in a way something to do with the beforetimers. The councilmen spared from the great white would have passed on some beforetimer culture before they passed away, All cultures tend to repeat one that has been present before them. It's in human nature basically.
4. I like the idea that if the ordinary people have knowledge about misfit power, they won't be as afraid of them. It would provide much more equality than is present. If beforetimer technology can help bring this about, so much the better. People are already abusing their power, and their perception of them as higher than misifts, and that misfits are 'deformed'. In every situation power can be abused but equality is still better than nothing.
This is awesome!
Should we start structuring our arguments now, and preparing our posts?
Also, I think it might be good to get a list of useful quotes and evidence that we can use in our debates.
Does anyone know how many posts we are allowed, and whether everyone has to post in the actual debate?
I think we should start preparing our actual debates. So how do we want to do this? Should someone start writing the debate and then post it on here, and we can all comment and add things? Or aren't we allowed to post our actual debates on this thread? I suppose it would make it a little easier for the other team to form rebuttals...
I think it would be good if we assigned topics to people. ex. Someone can do the introduction, someone can do our 1st point, etc.
Then they can post up their bit on this thread, and we can all read through it and correct things, as well as adding to it.
At the end we can put all the topics together to form our debate.
Sorry if that's not how it works. I've never done this before...
I think we're ready, we have a lot of strong, easily backed up points.
We got the good side. hehe.
I think each point should be a group effort though, kind of what you said, but since people can't get on everyday, I think that no one should have full responsibility of a specific point, in case they are unexpectedly unable to complete it.
I haven't participated in many debates, but I think we should formulate an introduction and think up possible rebuttals that are ready to be included into, since as the opposition, we're going second.
For those who haven't debated before: Just in case, not to sound pompous or anything.
We can't do these:
unprofessional behaviour
offensive behaviour
presentation of a truistic case
presentation of a specific knowledge case
misquotations
speaking to the opposition instead of the audience
presenting new arguments in the rebuttal
introduction of parts of a plan by the second speaker
Oh, and Do we want a name for our team?
Do we need a team line? Or is this just something stupid school debating has drilled into me...
15 years ago
Thu Sep 04 2008, 09:20pm
I'm not sure...but I guess a team line would help sum up what our general point is :) ...and drill it into the audience :P Any ideas?
I think we should also mention that what the affirmative want to do (destroying or covering up beforetime technology) is a short-term solution, while ours is a long-term solution. We're devising a solution for the future, not just the present.
I think that makes us sound more hardcore :P
yeah! Hardcore debaters!!! XP
So are we going to present our argument straight up or RPG it in some way - people liked the A & B debate ... could we do something along those lines - you know create an "affirmative team member" (we'd prolly have trouble if we used a real affirmative team member) to bounce our ideas off...(and demolish)?
I like the RPG format, there's more oppotunity to be funny.
I think formal is easier though. Could we alternate? Do our formal, dry, extremely witty (hopefully) debate, and then do what Nef suggested as a sort of comic relief?
are you calling me comc relief? I'm offended :P
15 years ago
Fri Sep 05 2008, 07:56am
::) nef....
Okay, we all know that we're talking to Swallow, right?
Wanderer Guilden
15 years ago
Wanderer Guilden
Mage
lol Nef and TSC!
um, sorry if these things have been said before (as some posts are really long and i skimmed *is procrastinating*...)
I know medicine has been mentioned, and social inequalities, I mean come on! look at the Council men! and even the twentyfamilies gypsies (before Swallow got to them).
this is just a suggestion, but what about if we start out with a definition of the word "technology", after all,( i think i remember debating against something similar before) i think the definition of technology is anything that is created by man, that is language, the written word, knifes, bricks, paper, shoes, clothes, etc...
even the simplest things that man has created could be considered technology, the people in the Land are using the same technology (in the simplest forms, perhaps... but still) as the beforetimers.
man has always progressed, that is, made more technologies. when one technology has become out-dated, we invent a new one to replace it, who's to say that they wont invent something worse if they don't look at the befortimers?
loose the knowledge, you loose the insight, ergo you loose the lesson learnt. ignorance is not bliss. ha! that could be our line! ignorance is not bliss.... meh
also if the knowledge of the beforetime was not lost and abhorred, the Misfits would be understood, as the research and books and knowledge that they weren’t a product of the Great White would be known...
Meh... random points, sorry if they don't make sense, I'm half way through an assignment....
also sorry if the points above have been mentioned before...
Question - what makes landsmen so morally (or whatever) superior to beforetimers? because banning the work of the befortimers reeks of unjustifiable moral superiority
Swallow: er ...could you rephrase that?
Nef: landsmen think themselves better than beforetimers so they ban beforetimer things - BUT i've yet to see proof that landsmen are superior - they have the same prejudices and intolerances
Swallow: right on!
Nef: the same avarice and love of power - just not the means to act on it in such a widespread fashion as the beforetimers. Does that make them better? NO
Swallow: I'm not sure ... they are forbidding the weapons of the beforetimers, so they can't kill in the same manner
Nef: you can kill people just as effectively with a knife or a rock - anything else is just window dressing - if the same types of people are controlling the hand with the weapon...
Swallow: [act]thoughtfully [/act]hmmmmmmm
Ok - who wants to be first speaker - and what will be our first point?
The first argument is the more important part - we can collaborate on the argument then just have one person post it....
I just noticed debates are tomorrow *smacks herself in the head.* Um, I don't want to go first, I'm not so good with talking formal. I'll be glad to participate though, I think I'm supposed to, but anyways....anywhere BUT 1st!
Also I've read through all the threads refering to the soap box, but I still don't really get it, someone care to explain?
Wanderer Guilden
15 years ago
Fri Sep 05 2008, 05:42pm
Wanderer Guilden
Mage
*puts hand up* if no one wants to go first i will...
i shall make the first part of the post and you all can boo it and then change it, i shall edit it in in a min...
EDIT: this will prolly sound stupid:
Technology:
1. application of tools and methods: the study, development, and application of devices, machines, and techniques for manufacturing and productive processes. (eg, clothes, fire, etcetera).
2. method of applying technical knowledge: a method or methodology that applies technical knowledge or tools.
3. anthropology sum of a society’s or culture’s knowledge: the sum of a society’s or culture’s practical knowledge, especially with reference to its material culture .
Welcome Moonfairies, Ober.neters and the Affirmative team.
The statement for this round of debating is:
“Beforetime technology should stay in the Beforetime.â€
We are the negative team, that is, we are arguing that Beforetime technology should not stay in the Beforetime.
We of the Negative team believe that ignorance is not bliss, that is, ignoring and shunning the knowledge of Beforetime technology will not solve the problems of the Land or the problems of the Gypsies.
If we do not listen to the warnings of the past then how will we learn to achieve better in the future?
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it prolly sounds really stupid, feel free to change/ cut/ redo/ ignore it.....
sorry it took me so long to edit, it took me an HOUR to get the window up...
Wow that's good! I don't think I've ever seen so many quotes on ober.net before!
Mystic Guildmistress
15 years ago
Mystic Guildmistress
Mage
Lol that looks like all our arguments in one post TSC! :)
I quite like what Helena said as an opening statement: (Small changes and additions)
Welcome Moonfairies, Ober.neters and the Affirmative team.
The statement for this round of debating is:
“Beforetime technology should stay in the Beforetime.â€
We are the negative team, that is, we are arguing that Beforetime technology should not stay in the Beforetime.
First of all, what do we mean by Beforetimer technology should not stay in the beforetime? By technology we mean the broad concept that deals with a species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment. Not stay; refers to the idea that we should not leave the past in the past.
We of the Negative team believe that ignorance is not bliss, that is, ignoring and shunning the knowledge of Beforetime technology will not solve the problems of the Land or the problems of the Gypsies.
If we do not listen to the warnings of the past then how will we learn to achieve better in the future? Technology also benefits the greater community; Before timer technology has been discovered which provide valuable resources including medical treatment, food, water and shelter that could solve social issues within the Land.
For the speakers, they don't necessarily have to be good debators but experience would probably be a good thing. So any volunteers for 2nd, 3rd, and any other speakers we might have? If not many people are willing I will be a speaker, but I'd rather not :P After all, all the speakers are doing is presenting our arguments, not making them all up by themselves.
Wanderer Guilden
15 years ago
Wanderer Guilden
Mage
*claps* i like your version better, EI; a lot more detail!
does anybody mind, again, if I'm first poster/ speaker? I've had experience at debating, my old school went to state and i was the brain/first speaker... just asking, incase someone wants it
Helena I think you'd be good for the job... and seeing as everyone can contribute to what you say, it doesn't really matter who goes where....
I'll go second or third if you'd like.
Wanderer Guilden
15 years ago
Wanderer Guilden
Mage
;D yeh, i was just asking, incase someone had a preference to it...
*has been sneaking a peek at other teams thoughts* hmm.... i think we could easily think of rebuttle for most of them, others I'm not to sure of... :-/
eg,
A: Misfits don't need Beforetime tech.
B: yes they do, as they have needed it in the past, when the plague struck they uncovered the use of the needle, and they were never effected by the plague...
(lol I'm working on possibilities of possibilities that they could possibly choose for arguments, I’ll let you know if i work out anymore...) *hopes the other team sees this, as 'twould be funny*
15 years ago
Fri Sep 05 2008, 09:07pm
That's a good start!
I think we need to summarise what our over-all argument will be, though.
Welcome Moonfairies, Ober.neters and the Affirmative team.
The topic for this round of debating is:
“Beforetime technology should stay in the Beforetime.â€
As the negative team, we dispute the judiciousness of this statement, and believe that exploring and learning about Beforetime technology is the best way forward.
I will be discussing the benefits that beforetime technology can have for our society. It can provide better medical tratment as well as improved security.
Our second speaker, (insert name here), will inform you of the importance of learning from the past. They will convice you that we must explore the past in order to progress to the future. Our third speaker, (insert name here), will consider the social and cultural benefits that Beforetime technology can give us.
Our fourth speaker, (insert name here), will sum up our argument and convince you that leaving Beforetime technology in the past is definitely not the best solution.
First of all, what do we mean by saying Beforetimer technology should not stay in the beforetime? By technology we mean the broad concept that deals with a species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment. So we believe that it is important for the knowledge and usage of Beforetime technology not to stay in the past.
We of the Negative team believe that ignorance is not bliss. Ignoring and shunning the knowledge of Beforetime technology will not solve the problems of the Land or the problems of the Gypsies.
-------------------------
I think we should probably cut the following bit out. It's written well and there is no problem with it, except it addresses all of our main points, and the first speaker is only supposed to speak about one or two.
(If we do not listen to the warnings of the past then how will we learn to achieve better in the future? Technology also benefits the greater community; Before timer technology has been discovered which provide valuable resources including medical treatment, food, water and shelter that could solve social issues within the Land. )
The part I added is a bit dry, but I'm sure someone will make it more creative. :)
Edit: Should we also focus on the fact that the affirmative team wants to ban all Beforetime technology? i.e If one of them brings up a specific piece of Beforetime technology (I just saw an example in their thread about Garth and a blender) and how it would be bad for the community, we could say - "What about all of the good that technology can do? Would you ban all technology - (antibiotics, immunisations, etc.) just because one man cut his finger on a blender? That would be sacrificing millions of lives for the sake of a few."
Wanderer Guilden
15 years ago
Wanderer Guilden
Mage
Welcome Moonfairies, Ober.neters and the Affirmative team.
The topic for this round of debating is:
“Beforetime technology should stay in the Beforetime.â€
As the negative team, we dispute the judiciousness of this statement, and believe that exploring and learning about Beforetime technology is the best way forward.
I will be discussing the benefits that beforetime technology can have for our society. It can provide better medical treatment as well as improved security.
Our second speaker will inform you of the importance of learning from the past. They will argue that we must explore the past in order to progress to the future.
Our third speaker will consider the social and cultural benefits that Beforetime technology can give us.
Our fourth speaker will sum up our argument and persuade you that leaving Beforetime technology in the past is definitely not the best solution for our people.
First of all, what do we mean by saying Beforetimer technology should not stay in the beforetime? By technology we mean the broad concept that deals with a species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment. So we believe that it is important for the knowledge and usage of Beforetime technology not to stay in the past.
We of the Negative team believe that ignorance is not bliss. Ignoring and shunning the knowledge of Beforetime technology will not solve the problems of the Land or the problems of the Gypsies.
--------------------------
I only made a few changes, the rest was good, but if your TOO forceful it may effect the way the judges see our side.
ok then, someone else’s turn to try to improve it! *suddenly feels like 'pass the parcel'*
lol if someone doesn't agree with me, that’s fine lol
um... if i'm not on early or late enough, someone will have to post it for me.... just a reminder....
15 years ago
Fri Sep 05 2008, 10:46pm
I'll be a speaker if no one else wants to do it - I'm not bad at rebuttal... (at least, give me an argument and I generally have fun trying to pull it apart...)EDIT: looking at the topics - either second or fourth would be best for me - I'm not sure I could do the third speaker topic
Perhaps should we look at technology not existing in a vaccuum - we are arguing that ignorance is not bliss, we should talk about how, if technology is history, then the introduction of technology will generally be accompanied by the historical effects of that technology (to understand the technology, whoever discovers it must needs to research history to figure it out) - that's rough, but it might be added to
so what is our first point? Do you want any help with writing - I could do a couple of paragraphs or something if you give me a topic.. how long should our argument posts be?
15 years ago
Sat Sep 06 2008, 10:49am
I have tweaked it a little; feel free to ignore it.
Welcome Moonfairies, Gypsies, fellow Obernetters and the Affirmative team.
The topic for this round of debating is:
“Beforetime technology should stay in the Beforetime.â€
As the negative team, we dispute the sagacity of this statement, and believe that exploring and learning about Beforetime technology would be the best way forward for the Land. First of all, what do we mean by saying Beforetimer technology should not stay in the beforetime?
Technology is a broad concept that deals with a species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment. If we do not listen to the warnings of the past then how will we learn to achieve better in the future? Technology could benefit the greater community in the Land; Before timer technologies have been discovered that can provide valuable resources; including medical treatment, food, water and shelter; all important social issues within the Land.
I will be discussing the benefits that beforetime technology can have for our society. It can provide better medical treatment as well as improved security.
Our second speaker will inform you of the importance of learning from the past. They will argue that we must explore the past in order to progress to the future.
Our third speaker will consider all of the social and cultural benefits that the Beforetimers could pass on to the Land through their technology.
Our fourth speaker will sum up our argument and persuade you that leaving Beforetime technology in the past is definitely not the best solution for our people.
We of the Negative team believe that ignorance is not bliss. Ignoring and shunning the knowledge of Beforetime technology will not solve the problems of the Land or the problems of the Gypsies.
We should also mention that what the affirmative wish to do; destroying or covering up beforetime technology; is a short-term solution, while ours is a long-term solution. We're devising a solution for the future, not just the present.
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Who's going when? And who's doing medical?
Should we put it in RPG somehow?