EEEEE - a ghost! I'll have to think about it
Hi teamies!!
That's really good Queen Arwen.
I think we should focus on the fact that Maruman may have died in the Beforetime, and he is prjecting himself into the future using the dreamtrails.
Quite a few people already believe this, so it should be quite easy to argue.
1. We know form what Elspeth has seen that Maruman existed in the Beforetime as a cat called 'Merimyn'. How could he have possibly stayed alive for all of this time? Conclusion - he must be dead.
2. If he is dead, how is he appearing with Elspeth? Well, he must be using the Dreamtrails to project himself into Elspeth's time. We don't really know what the Dreamtrails are capable of, but we do know that Maruman is very skilled at using them. He may have existed on the Dreamtrails for centuries.
To get more ideas for this, we can probably just have a sneaky look at the Theories threads that argue for this.
Possible rebuttals -
"but elspeth can feel, see, and smell Maruman. She would not be able to do this if Maruman were a ghost."
Well, I am certainly interested to know that you have an exact and absolute definition of what a ghost is. I know we are still unsure, as a phenomenon like this has never been recorded before.
How do you know that ghosts cannot be solid, moving, etc.?
What I do know is this -
Sense of touch, smell, etc, all come from the brain. As you touch something physically, your hand sends messages to your brain, and all of the feeling is experienced in the brain. This can be easily be manipulated. What if something (such as Maruman) sends messages straight to your brain without the physical touch ever being experienced? The mind is all too easy to manipulate, as the misfit coercers have shown.
Perhpas it's all connected to their talents. I mean, Maruman doesn't show himself to everyone, he's well known at obernewtyn, but they are all talents. The outsiders who see/touch maruman are negligable in number - sure quite a few may see him, but perhaps you have to have some sort of talent to feel him... this needs some work, but it might be an angle!
15 years ago
Fri Sep 19 2008, 06:17pm
Yes! That could be a reason why Maruman hates being touched!
I think we should try and work out what our main points will be, and how we will structure our argument. I've had a look at some of the other team's threads, and we're a bit behind. ~:|
I will look for more points as to why Maruman is a ghost.
At the moment, the structure could go something like this -
1st speaker -
defines topic
outlines our argument
presents first point (I think our first argument should argue all of the reasons why Maruman is logically most likely to be a ghost. He cannot have lived all of those years, so he must be dead. However, he is with Elspeth, so he must be a ghost. We can also add in how we think he is doing this. A definition of what a ghost is would be good. We can say that he is using the Dreamtrails somehow. We can also make that point about him not liking to be touched, and explain how he can make himself appear real and solid.
2nd speaker -
Rebuts
Presents second point - (That all of the other arguments do not make sense.
I think we should point out that Maruman was seen when he was a young cat/kitten. The fact that he has aged shows that he was once a living, breathing animal, and not a robot. Also, the tecknoguilders would be able to communicate with him or at least sense something different if he was a robot.
He was also seen playing with Cassy, so he can't be Cassy reincarnate.
As for being an alien - what evidence is there of alien life? Maruman has shown no signs of being an alien. There is absolutely no proof for this. We can also talk about how impossible and unlikely it is that if there is alien life, it should take the form of a cat. For an alien cat to exist, a planet must have existed with the exact same conditions as earth. Not only that, but exactly the same things must have happened to lead to the cat evolving. Even a small thing such as a crushed butterfly can change things drastically. It is next to impossible that earth could be exactly replicated, as so much was left to chance and coincidences. We can also argue about how long it would take to travel to earth, even with advanced equipment.)
3rd speaker -
rebuts
sums up
Anyway, this is just a suggestion. You can change it if you have a better idea.
Edit: I just read in one of the threads that there will be no rebuttals. Is this true? Rebuttals are the only thing I'm good at! Oh well. If it's true that we can't rebut, I'm sure we can just work in our 'reasons why the other team's arguments are ridiculous' into our 2nd speech. ;)
Also, another thought for Cassy reincarnate - they are trying to argue that Maruman just has part of Cassy's mind joined with his. I think we need a solid definition of what 'reincarnate' is to combat this.
The online dictionary defines reincarnate as -
1. To present something again in a new form after it has been abandoned or discontinued.
2. In some systems of belief, to return to live another life in a different body.
I don't think either of these really apply to their argument. For number 2., surely you can't live another life in a body that was already inhabited?
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
15 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
Dreamscape Artist
Okay- I've just read that we should back up our points with stuff from the books. Does anyone know where it was that Elspeth saw Merimyn? I think it was in The Stone Key, and unfortunately I don't have that one yet. There's also the suggestion of as a ghost it mean Maruman is immortal- he'll always be able to watch Elspeth, and Cassy could have told him what to do when he died in the Beforetime, so that he could make sure Elspeth did as she was needed to do.
Just another idea :P
OK, I just realised that we only have one speaker. And that we're not supposed to argue against the other team (Darn!).
So we need to decide on a definition of the topic. The different definitions for 'ghost' are -
1. The supposed spirit of somebody who has died. Or the disembodied spirit of a dead person/animal imagined as haunting living people.
2. Nonexistent person or thing. An entity that seems to exist but does not, e.g. a name entered on a list by mistake
3. soul. somebody's soul or spirit
I would suggest that the first one is the best.
So we would define the topic as -
"The present Maruman is a ghost or spirit of his deceased self."
Maybe there is a better way of expressing this, but I'm sure one of you will come up with something. :P
So, the points that we have so far for Maruman being a ghost are -
1. Arguments why Maruman must be a ghost: Maruman being a ghost would explain how he can still be 'alive'. Cats usually do not live for more than 20 years. Because we know that Maruman was around in the Beforetime (here we can provide some quotes from the books), we know that he could not survive for such a long time. Therefore he must be a ghost.
We can also say that he was once much younger (here we would put in the section where Merimyn is playing with the girl). Therefore he has aged, and therefore he must once have been alive.
2. How he is a ghost: This would include possibly how he died, and how he is projecting himself into the future. Obviously not every animal who dies becomes a ghost, so Maruman must be doing something special. I think this could be to do with the dreamtrails.
It would also include how he can make himself appear solid, etc. We can also make the point here that this is why Maruman does not like to be touched (here we can put in a quote from the books). Maybe add something about him being seliga?
Anyway, maybe we can say that all animals and humans are preserved on the Dreamtrails when they die! Echoes of themselves exist on the dreamtrails (like ghosts). But they usually can't project themselves onto the 'real' world. They usually don't have the skill or wish to. Maruman has been playing on the Dreamtrails since he was a little cat, and knows them. He knows how to give himself form in real life - it is just like giving yourself form on the Dreamtrails, only more complex. Maybe this strenuous effort is the reason why his mind is muddled. It is only an echo of himself that is coming back (in other words, he's 'not all there'). The longer you spend on the Dreamtrails, the more you become part of it. So his mind has been slowly corroded. The times when he is 'seliga' are when he has to return to the Dreamtrails. This gives him some future-telling ability.
Maybe this close connection to the Dreamtrails tells him something about the Moon! (here we could add in the bit from TSK when the vlar-rei are saying something about the Wavesong and the Moon. I think they say it's like the Dreamtrails, but I'm not sure.)
This idea is only half formed, but we might be able to work with it. On the other hand, it might be a little too complicated to argue that he is using the Dreamtrails.
Oh, and another thought. You know how 'Maruman' used to be 'Merimyn'? Well, maybe this is sort of like when Ghaltha changed his name. (we could put a quote here). Maybe Maruman changed his name when he began projecting himself to the real world. He was 'reborn' in a sense. He had a new purpose (to help Elspeth) so he gave himself a new name. He wanted to forget his past self.
Also, I just remembered Elspeth saying that he would go away for a while and come back with new injuries. Maybe this is because in the periods where he disappears, he goes to the Dreamtrails. As I said before, the Dreamtrails corrode you. And anything that happens on the Dreamtrails can seem real. He injures himself on the Dreamtrails, and so when he comes back to the 'real world', he projects those injuries as well. (here we can put in a quote about how the mind can make yourself injured in real life. From when Maruman is explaining that elspeth could get killed on the Dreamtrails.)
3. How this relates to Elspeth's quest: This would detail why it is necessary for Maruman to be a ghost in order to help Elspeth on her quest. It would explain that he was born into the Beforetime (as Cassy's cat of Hanna's, I can't remember.)
Anyway, one of them foresaw Elspeth coming. They knew that she would need Maruman's help, so they told Maruman what he would need to do. He died (maybe something to do with his missing eye?). Then he went to the Dreamtrails, and waited until the day he would meet Elspeth. He is the one to guard her because he is immortal, and has a lot of knowledge of the Beforetime. He also knows about Cassy and Hannah. And he can guide Elspeth on the Dreamtrails. Maybe he also preotecs Elspeth from evil things on the Dreamtrails.
Sorry for making that so long and convoluted. Most of it probably doesn't make sense, but ideas were just coming to me. :P
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
15 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
Dreamscape Artist
They're all great ideas Avialle!
The bit about the Moon being connected to the Dreamtrails would also explain why Maruman hates the Moon so much- because it won't let him go completely to be 'real' with Elspeth. Or maybe there's a Moon on the Dreamtrails, and it's what is corroding his mind.
And the name thing sounds just right- how he changed his name for another time, place and situation.
We should probably begin to work out what we want to include in the speech, and then each of begins to expand on a point to make the whole thing work. Great work everyone- the ideas are all amazing!
15 years ago
Tue Sep 23 2008, 03:05pm
Well, I think the outline I posted above would probably be ok. Unless you have another idea about how to set it out? :)
So if we go by my one, there are three major points, and three of us. (I don't think Kangaruth is going to show).
Although point 2 is a lot longer than the others. :P Maybe we can all help with that one. So, who wants to do what? And do you have any other points to add?
Edit: I just saw the quote about Merimyn. It was actually Hannah's daughter who was playing with Merimyn, and by the looks of it they were playing on the dreamtrails. (look on Team Robot's 2nd page to find the quote if you don't have the books with you. He he... thanks guys. ;P )
Anyway, this means that
a) Marumans was born after the Great White.
b) He and Hannah's daughter were already playing on the Dreamtrails when Maruman was little. Maybe he had a natural talent for using the Dreamtrails, because Hannah's daughter seemed unable to catch up with him. This talent may have been one of the reasons he was chosen to become the Moonwatcher.
c) He dreamed of Elspeth. Maybe this is what prompted him to find Elspeth and help her. Maybe he already had futuretelling abilities before he died, and they told him that it was his destiny to help Elspeth on her quest.
GAH - sorry about not being more help - i'm still finishing off my other debate - i'll be all done tomorrow!! Great points!
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
15 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
Dreamscape Artist
Okay, round two is now open. So, how are we going to write this? And we've got a 700 word restriction too...
That should be fine. Have a look at the plan I've laid out above ^^^^^. We can probably lay it out a bit like that, unless you have other suggestions...
So, who wants to do what?
I'm here, I promise! Just in a different timezone and with waaaay too much work on my plate.
I'll go through the books this evening and look for helpful quotes and references. And, um... anything else helpful I think I can do.
15 years ago
Fri Sep 26 2008, 04:10am
I think we should mention the beasts' ideas about death and it's not very different from sleep, so Maruman could be longsleeping but wandering the Dreamtrails in his dreams and projecting himself from there. Ghosts are pretty much regarded as projections from the spirit world/astral plane (and we should mention that in our definition), so that does tie in nicely.
I'm also wondering if we can tie in links to the heartfire that Faraf talks about - that's some kind of collective beast conciousness, isn't it? Maybe they elected him somehow as the Moonwatcher, and renamed him (I love that idea that he was renamed in the same way Gahtha/Galta did.
Oh, also, I think we should make a big point about the word "seliga"'. Elspeth thought it meant behind something (I'll find the quote) but I'm pretty sure IC has said in an interview that Elspeth was wrong. Obviously, every team is going to claim it for their
Quotes to come...
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
15 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
Dreamscape Artist
That sounds great Kangaruth. Avialle, if you want me to write something, I'll need to know really soon, because as of tuesday, I'm in Perth for 9 days. But it all looks great, and the structure is fine by me.
15 years ago
Fri Sep 26 2008, 04:57pm
Kangaruth - I love all your suggestions! Especially about the heartfire and the beasts electing Maruman as the Moonwatcher. :)
We can probably include that in the part about Elpeth's quest.
Arwen - You could have a go at writing a bit of 'Arguments why Maruman must be a ghost'. You don't have to write it all, just as much as you can/want to do. Then you can post it up here, and we can all fill in any gaps and play around with it a bit. :)
Ok, so, introduction -
Greetings gypsies, misfits, opposing team members, and Moonfairies.
We are here today to persuade you that Maruman is a ghost. This means that the Maruman who walks with us today is a ghost or spirit of his deceased self, projected from the spirit world/astral plane. You may be thinking that this is a ludicrous idea, but we will show that this is actually the most logical conclusion, considering the evidence. We will speak about the reasons why Maruman must be a ghost. We will also tell you how he manages to appear normal to us, and discuss ideas about the afterlife. Finally, we will tell you how Maruman being a ghost ties in with Elspeth's quest.
That's not very good, but oh well. The whole speech-writing part of debating was never my strong point. :-/ But hopefully we can just get a rough idea of what we will be saying, and then we can make it entertaining and concise later.
Edit: Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh! This is due today!!! :-/ I didn't realise. I'll try to write some more, but I'm going out soon. Maybe the Moonfairies will give us all an extension? I've had a look at the other team's threads, and they don't seem to be ready yet, either (apart from the Robot thread :P )
15 years ago
Wed Oct 01 2008, 02:34pm
*dpm* Apparently the Moonfairies have offered an extension for all teams, so that will be helpful. :)
I also just had an idea. Another piece of evidence we could use to prove that Maruman must be a ghost is the ease with which he can enter peoples minds and manipulate them. Elspeth always has a very strong block around her mind, but Maruman can always enter it seemingly without effort. What's more, she can't completely work out how he does it. I think she describes it as though he is 'wrapping his mind around her own", or something. We could find a quote there.
This could be a side-effect of becoming a ghost. Your mind is more free, not connected to your body. Therefore you can overcome physical and mental barriers more easily.
Elspeth also says that Maruman's mind is unlike any she has ever felt before. This is obviously because he is projecting himself from the 'astral plane', or the Dreamtrails. His mind gets more muddled. Without a body to tie himself down, there are less boundaries between himself and all the other entities and possibilities on the Dreamtrails. Consequently his mind mingles with these things and his mind pattern changes.
15 years ago
Fri Sep 26 2008, 11:40pm
Here are some quotes I've found.
TSK, page 704/5
"There, to my astonishment, sat a small motley-coloured cat. It took me a moment to realise with shock that is was Maruman, but not Maruman as I knew him, old and scarred. He was whole and young and his two eyes gleamed as he grew wings and sprang into the sky.
[...]
It was Maruman's mindvoice, but the sharp ironies that enriched his older mindvoice were absent. This was a younger, lighter voice with a constant ripple of kitten mischief threded through it. I felt a stab of grief, for this was a Maruman I had never known. But how was it possible that I was dreaming of Maruman as a young cat?
"I have dreamed your face, funaga," Maruman said thoughtfully.
TKP: p640
"I/Gahltha am notstrong on dreamtrails. Not as Marumanyelloweyes."
"He asked you to look after me, didn't he?"
"That is so. Marumanyelloweyes is seliga, so Gahtha watches"...
I had not recognised the beastword Gahtha had used: seliga. I thought it meant something like "behind" or "back".
p118:
"Maruman knows dreamtrails. Knows where doors are/were"
"You mean your memory of the doors," I sent kindly as if he were a halfwit muddling things up.
"All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."
p18:
"Dreams may have purposes the dreamer cannot fathom. They are the gateways to dreamtrails and may lead also to longsleep," Maruman sent.
Beasts called death longsleep and believe it to be connected to sleeping.
Ashling, p291 (Tor paperback):
"He does what he/yelloweyes must."
I frowned into his dark eyes. "Do you/Gahtha know where he/Maruman is?"
"The voices of his chaos/madness call him when they will and he/Maruman must hear them. The strain of guardianship caused the voices to call."
Farseekers p34 (Tor paperback)
"I/We are Agyllian. [...] I have used the yelloweyes to communicate with you, Elspeth Innle, knowing you would come to his deepest mind. He is weary to death and it would be kind to let him join the stream, but he is not ready to go yet and neither, I think, are you ready to let him go. His pain and strange mind make him receptive to us and allow us to use him."
Obernewtyn p28 (Tor paperback):
Maruman said he 'remembered' the Great White, and though that was impossible, he wove remarkably frightening pictures of a world in terror.
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
15 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guildmistress
Dreamscape Artist
Okay, below's a rough copy of what we could use, I don't think I have the time to flesh it any more, but feel free to cahnge it however you guys want to.
Maruman must be a ghost because of this: he lived in the Beforetime. Sure, cats do live long lives, but not quite that many years. And how else would he be so skilled with the Dreamtrails, if they weren’t part of him- when you sleep the longsleep, you join the mindstream, which is still connected to the Dreamtrails. Feelings affect his being, making it difficult for him to exist. His mind is distorted because of the wearing down of it by the stream and trails. His new injuries, after he comes back from wandering and having one of his fit- he gets them when he is fighting on the Dreamtrails to be let go, to guide Elspeth. And he’s changed his name from Merrimyn to Maruman, for a different time and form of existence.
A point on the Stream- in Sador, when Elspeth is injured, Atthis finds it difficult to communicate with Elspeth, so Maruman must have a sort of shiel between himself and the stream, to allow for communication.
How are we doing with our entry? Is there anything else we need to do that I can help with?
15 years ago
Wed Oct 01 2008, 02:07pm
I think we're going pretty slowly with our entry, actually. :P
Here's what we have so far:
Greetings gypsies, misfits, opposing team members, and Moonfairies.
We are here today to persuade you that Maruman is a ghost. This means that the Maruman who walks with us today is a ghost or spirit of his deceased self, projected from the spirit world/astral plane. You may be thinking that this is a ludicrous idea, but we will show that this is actually the most logical conclusion, considering the evidence. We will speak about the reasons why Maruman must be a ghost. We will also tell you how he manages to appear normal to us, and discuss ideas about the afterlife. Finally, we will tell you how Maruman being a ghost ties in with Elspeth's quest.
Well, it is quite obvious that Maruman must be a ghost because of two reasons; he was once a living cat, and cat's usually don't live more than 20 years. Therefore he must be dead. But how can we still see him, speak to him, touch him? The answer is simple - he must be a ghost.
Maruman was alive during the Great White. He himself told us this.
"Maruman said he 'remembered' the Great White, and though that was impossible, he wove remarkably frightening pictures of a world in terror."
This shows that he was living decades before today. Much longer than a cat, or indeed any creature, could survive. But some might argue that he may be a supernatural creature - one that is somehow more long-lived than any other on this earth. However, we know that he was once a young cat. Therefore he has aged, and aging shows that he must once have been a living animal.
But I can see that some among you are still skeptical. Very well. I will provide proof. This is a statement from our own Farseeker Guildmistress.
"There, to my astonishment, sat a small motley-coloured cat. It took me a moment to realise with shock that is was Maruman, but not Maruman as I knew him, old and scarred. He was whole and young and his two eyes gleamed as he grew wings and sprang into the sky."
15 years ago
Wed Oct 01 2008, 03:11pm
*dpm*
Ok, next bit could be:
So, now that we've convinced you that Maruman is a ghost, you are probably wondering how he is doing it. Obviously not every animal who dies becomes a ghost, so Maruman must be doing something pecial. Don't worry, we have an answer!
As we mentioned in our definition, Maruman is projecting himself from the 'Astral Plane', or the Dreamtrails. When creatures die, they join the mindstream. However, Maruman tells us -
"All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."
This means that everything that ever existed is preserved on the Dreamtrails, including Maruman. An echo of Maruman exists on the Dreamtrails, like a ghost. It is this imprint of Maruman that is being projected to the 'real' world from the Dreamtrails. Because it is only a print of Maruman (in other words, he's 'not all there'), his mind is distorted. Being so closely connected to the Mindstreem also distorts his mind, making it almost impossible to breach. This has advantages for Elspeth's quest, as we will discuss later.
Anyway, not every animal prjects themselves onto the
real' world. They do not have the skill or wish to. Maruman, on the other hand, has been playing on the Dreatrails since he was a kitten. He is very practised at using them, and would be able to perform such an act. Galtha tells us -
"I/Gahltha am notstrong on dreamtrails. Not as Marumanyelloweyes."
Maruman has the skill to give himself form in real life - it is just like giving yourself form on the Dreamtrails, only more complex.
Now you are surely wondering how Maruman can make himself appear alive. Surely ghosts have no real form, no shape?
Sense of touch, smell, etc, all come from the brain. As you touch something physically, your hand sends messages to your brain, and all of the feeling is experienced in the brain. This can be easily be manipulated. What if something (such as Maruman) sends messages straight to your brain without the physical touch ever being experienced? The mind is all too easy to manipulate, as the misfit coercers have shown.
And Maruman's mind is strange. He has no connections tying him down to the physical world, so his mind is more free. This means that he can enter people's minds very easily and inconspicuously, even when they have a strong mind-block. Elspeth's mindblock is extremely stroong, and yet Maruman can overcome it easily. (A quote is needed here.) This is further proof that it would be easy from him to manipulate minds.
However, this does take effort. Which means that Maruman would like to avoid being touched as much as possible. (A quote is needed here as well.)
Maruman;s irritation with human emotions is well known. (We need a quote here too.) This is because the emotions only serve to further cloud and confuse his already muddled mind. They make it harder for him to concentrate on maintaining his semblance of reality.
Kangaruth - would you ming finding those extra quotes? I think most of them would be in the Stoone Key and The Keeping Place, but as I've said before, I've leant those out to people. Thanks. :)
