My lame attempt at obscurely saying that I'm jumping into a working conversation and adding my piece after not posting in this thread for months. Nothing relevant to this discussion :P
14 years ago
Sun Mar 07 2010, 02:06pm
This is what I think happened...
Serash builds a raft and one way or another escapes the earth temple on it. She if found floating on the sea by a Norse ship. Feeling sorry for her and her deformity they brink her back to Norseland and hide her away in the house that will someday be Ariel's... well I can't remember if Ariel's house was there before or if it was built for him but either way ...
Years later Ariel comes along and finds her there, probably dreamed of it. He gets into her head, he learns all the Sandorians secrets, about lotRQ and slavers, learns she's a good sailor and slowly starts manipulating her, buys her pretty clothes and things just to reinforce the manipulations and his image. When he's got his own roots down; and none of this should take too long, I mean he had Rushie for only a month or two, he places Serash into the position he created for her.
And from then on he can control pretty much every aspect of Salamander.
I am sorry if anyone's mentioned this before it's been a while since I've read through the thread.
I do believe that Salamander is Jakoby's twin sister. It is true that Elspeth hears Salamander speak in The Stone Key, and that the voice is deep but it is mentioned a few times in the series that Jakoby herself has a very deep voice.
I know this is going to be very left-field, but I've been thinking about Seresh being Salamander, and I just can't think of a particularly good explanation of why she would want to be involved in the slave trade; therefore, I was wondering about Jakoby. It's just a thought which I'm not convinced of myself, but what if Seresh was introduced in TSK to explain why Jakoby is Salamander. It would explain why Salamander began her career by destroying all the other slaving ships -- it was Jakoby searching for her sister whom she had just been told had escaped Sador by ship. Once Jakoby was sure that her sister wasn't aboard any of the ships any more, she would start taking slaves from the land in the hope of either coming across her sister among them, or hearing mention of her sister from the slaves (the herders wouldn't like Seresh's deformity so they'd be likely to call her Lud-damned and lock her in their cells or burn her if they ever saw her, so Salamander's gathering of Slaves from the herders would allow Jakoby to determine whether her sister had fallen into the hands of herders). And it also explains why Salamander does not come to Sador in search of slaves -- Jakoby would know that there was no point searching for her sister in Sador, and also she would know of the punishment for theft of freedom. Being Salamander would also allow Jakoby to search for Seresh in the land of the Red Queen, where she may have ended up after escaping on the ship. The pretty clothes in Ariel's residence in Norseland could be there in preparation of Jakoby finding Seresh, or they could belong to Jakoby herself (they are Sadoriann in style, and also Jakoby has seen Maruman, so that could explain the one-eyed cat brooch). Also, has anyone noticed that Jakoby seems to gift people with expensive clothing quite often? She brings heaps of Sadorian clothing aboard the Umborine as a gift for Bruna in TSK, and later in Sador, she gifts Elf and Seely(?) with Sadorian clothes. That clothing must cost a lot of money -- perhaps she can afford so much of it because of the money she earns as Salamander.
Jakoby seems to fit the descriptions we have of Salamander -- the yellow eyes, the deep voice (which someone mentioned earlier in this thread), the chocca-coloured skin and the sailing skills (including sailing out of sight of land -- which she admits to doing out of love for her sister). And it explains why Salamander masks herself -- if it were revealed that she was Jakoby, she couldn't return to her homeland.
Also, it may be a Dread Pirate Roberts situation, with Jakoby appointing others to search with/for her so that she can continue her duties in Sador.
Again, I'm far from convinced of this theory (there are so many holes and things it doesn't explain), but I figure that it can't hurt to throw it out there. Also, I like Jakoby, so I don't really want to believe that she'd be Salamander, but then I'm sure IC would have a better reason for Salamander being Salamander than just bitterness, revenge, greed, and lust for power (which are the reasons that seem to be being equated with Seresh) -- I'm sure that the role of slaver is the cover that allows Salamander to search for someone or something important.
I'm really curious as to what the connection is between Ariel and the Destroyer and Salamander. Can't wait for The Sending!
JessBear that is an intriguing suggestion and much more subtle than the sort of *bang, here is a new character who incidentally happens to be one of the most important anatagonists in the plot* job that would be pulled if Saresh was indeed Salamander- I think it is much more IC esque the way you describe...
Although I'm still inclined to believe that Seresh is Salamander that is quite a nice theory, JessBear. I like the sugestion that there is a deeper reason for what Salamander does, rather than just being a standard bad guy. It is also great the way that it explains the sudden rush of details we are given about Seresh, without suddenly turning her into a main character.
My feeling about the identity of Salamander is that it largely depends on how far ahead IC planned, and when she decided that Salamander would be important. We first meet him in Farseekers when he is purely a plot device, he then has a greater role in Ashling but is still mostly a means to an end. He vanishes again for most of TKP, not really becoming a significant character, with serious speculation as to his identity, until TSK, the same book in which Seresh is introduced. To me, this indicates that until TKP or even TSK Salamander did not have another identity, and it is in these books we need to start looking for him among the other characters.
Ashlings' guildleader
13 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
I like the theory JessBear, but I don't think that Jakoby would willingly take the entire land into slavery, which is Salamander's plan in TSK. It is possible that she had no choice and has plans to sabotage it, but I still don't think she'd risk Bruna like that at the very least.
Maybe a little off topic, but if Seresh is really Salamander, then i think their will be a very interesting scene where Jakoby will be forced to choose between helping Elf or Salamander. Yeah, just a random thought.
Dreamweaver Ward
13 years ago
Dreamweaver Ward
Dreamscape Artist
Interesting thought, I guess it depends if Jakoby knows that Seresh is Salamander, or if she just knows it's her sister. If Jakoby knows the truth then she knows that her sister is forcing slavery on innocent people. (Not that anyone deserves that, not even Malik. Or does he?) Anyway, point being, I don't think she'd support Seresh if she knows what her sister is doing. She might want to talk to her and ask her why she started working such a black trade, and what she hopes to achieve, but I don't think she'd ever turn against Elspeth. Jakoby doesn't know much, but she knows that Elf is important.
I like the theory about Jakoby, JessBear - it's well thought out and very interesting, but I'm still not entirely convinced. I think I could believe it better if we didn't have such a good knowledge of Jakoby's character. I get the idea of her starting out by trying to find her sister, but I just don't see her ever supporting slavery. And she loves her daughter, so I don't think she would have the time or freedom to disappear for months on end, which Salamander would seem to. I suspect she has some freedom to supply gifts because she is of relatively high standing in Sador. (Much as they have ranks.)
I do wonder about the man with the Dragon staff. (The man who presumably betrayed Dragon's mother.) The staff could be seen as something like a salamander. And there's no saying there's only one Salamander...
The problem for me with the Saresh=Salamander theory is that it all fits far too neatly...pretty much everything Jakoby tells Elf about Saresh in TSK perfectly aligns with some Salamander related knowledge...and for me that is highly suspicious - if in the final books we are told that Saresh is Salamander, most people's reactions will be along the lines of "duh" or "gee that wasn't very subtle foreshadowing..." and for that reason alone it doesn't feel right IMHO...
But she clearly has some important role to play, as well as being a delightfully crimson herring
Dreamweaver Ward
13 years ago
Dreamweaver Ward
Dreamscape Artist
I didn't mean to sound like I thought that Seresh is in fact Salamander, because I agree that it's just too obvious. It's a minor character who was introduced out of nowhere late in the series, with an obvious reason for being Salamander. I think it would be more likely to be a side character from the earlier books, even someone like Saul from the Druid's camp. I just think that IC is more subtle than to make it Seresh. I agree she will play some role in the final book/s though, and she is indeed a wonderfully crimson herring.
*GASP* NEW RADICAL THEORY:
SALAMANDER is an Agyllian bird, who lost in a power struggle against Atthis, and so wanted revenge by making up an equally powerful institution of slavery to counter Atthis' efforts of making people all "good" and "accepting". This Agyllian bird, naturally doesn't want to show it's face, so it gets representatives to do its dirty work for it. That human that Elf saw in the caves was Salamander's representative. The representative may or may not be Seresh, but he/she is not the ultimate brains behind the operation. It is that dastardly Agyllian bird. This proves our suspicions were right all along -- those [strike]pink[/strike] red birds are evil.
I like the idea of Seresh being Salamander, but some bits don't fit. It also seems too obvious because when in Sador Elspeth hears of Salamander and Seresh in a short amount of time, so you connect the dots.
I have another theory. This question seems to bug me. What happened to Bruna's father?
We know he left Jakoby after she refused to have what happened to Seresh happen to Bruna. Could he be Salamander? He would want revenge on Jakoby and would want to make Sadorians always rule his way. He could have met Seresh, who would probably trust him. Seresh would also try to protect Jakoby from him, and she probably thought that joining him was the best way. That would fit with Salamander being Sadorian and being male. He would probably be the right age, and would know about ships. He would also know how to get past Jakoby so he could still go to Sador, and he probably likes doing something she would hate.
It doesn't make much sense, but Bruna's father is mentioned, but it was mentioned so briefly that it seemed like it was trying to make you focus on something else. I don't know where he'd be otherwise.
I think the idea of Salamander being female is interesting, though. In Ashling, every thought is that Salamanda is male. But the possibility of Salamanda being female makes more of a cliffhanger. Adeliue, about your comment on ships, is there any character who posseses knowledge on ships? I can''t think of anyone? Who would know how to get to RQL? We are looking for a sailor.
Reuvan is the only one who is specifically mentioned to be a sailor I think...
What about the person from Ashlings who takes Elspeth and the Misfits to Sador. Jakoby does know some things about boats though she is not a sailor.
You know, it would be really interesting if Seresh was Salamander and if she used the beautiful woman to act as her 'messenger' or 'voice' early on. This is because she always thought she was beautiful and was told by her mother and sister that she was beautiful until she was sent to the Earthtemple. Therefore, it could be seen that she is using the beautiful woman to represent her idea of her own beauty. -Just sayin'!
It would also be interesting to see how this changes Jakoby's ideas about deformed tribespeople being sent to the Earthtemple at birth, because this could be shown as an example of what happens when a deformed person cannot accept who they are because they were told too late.
Lilac, I like your thinking on the beautiful woman as a stand in for Seresh' own beauty. I still don't think that she is Salamander, but there could definitely be something to the symbolism...
I was too lazy to read through all the posts, so if I repeat anything, feel free to blame it on that.
We have at least two popular identites for Salamander - the woman that keeps on popping up, and Jakoby's sister, Seresh. Of course there are other identities for him/her including anonymous Sadorian man, but those don't seem as thorough.
The woman that keeps poping up cannot be Seresh, as she is noticably deformed. Or can she? We know that Ariel likes to meddle with Oldtime instuments, and that Salamander is very suspicious to the extent that he/she doesn't trust people around him/her. So why does he/she trust Ariel? Of course, this may not be true to a certain extent, but there is a lot of strength in their partnership.
My guess is that Salamander, if he/she is Seresh, would be extremely conscious of her deformity and detest it. What I'm proposing that the first major push that made Ariel succeed in gaining Seresh's trust is his offer to use Beforetime instruments to change her face into something normal looking, in exchange for a partnership.
You get the feeling that Seresh and Jakoby greatly loved each other; it hurt her when Jakoby flinched at her appearance. This fueled her choice to accept Ariel's offer. So he gave her plastic surgery and turned her appearance into the woman that keeps on appearing.
Or you could shake off that theory and go with one that Salamander is not a person, but a name. That name applys to a small group of people that may or may not include Seresh and Ariel.
And I can't be bothered to write anymore, which is why the latter theory appears in two sentences. :P
Jessbears theory that Jackoby is salamander is very intriguing. I'm reminded of a sentence or two in the keeping place where (bruna i think) makes mention of Jackoby having returned from a long journey. I recall at the time of reading that i was bemused as to where she could have gone. The same chapter says that things with the rebels have been more or less sorted out and that the herders had already been taken to the spice groves and frightened off. So what was left for her to do? Maybe some light slave trading :)
Another idea, might it be that the temple guardians are involved with salamander? They also wear hoods, which would conceal both their deformities and any need to cover up changes between individuals. As the temple guardians are connected with the day-wacher/night-watcher prophecy, they may also have a link with the one-eyed cat brooch. Most importantly, given the new Asura thread, they have a direct link with Dameon and would be in a perfect position to manipulate him on Ariels behalf.
That reinforces the theory that Salamander doesn't show their identity because they have a disfigurement of the face. If Salamander is Seresh, then that would be a reason for all the secrecy, not just because she wants to conceal her identity. I still have a feeling that Salamander has something to do with the sea and/or sailors.
OK, well we already have completely definitive proof that Salamander is a woman: Elspeth thinks Salamander is a man, and Elspeth is always wrong. Case closed without needing to factor in the women's clothes at Arial's pad.
(Off-topic for this thread: if IC really wants a big fake-out at some point all she has to do is have one of Elspeth's wool-headed theories actually prove correct.)
As for which woman it is, a few books back I wondered about Jakoby, but that didn't feel right. I think it is the sister. From Jakoby's description of her her deformity isn't obvious when her face is covered, and she can do physically demanding things like sailing. She is all bitter and twisted about her upbringing, and it is mentioned more than once that Salamander isn't just in it for the money because (s)he is already so successful that (s)he could've long since retired.
The following very minor Sending spoiler is not about Salamander, but does relate to another point that was raised earlier in this thread: a character introduced late in the series can have an important role. ...so I don't see why that couldn't also apply to Salamander.
Also, I'll bet the Gadfian book found at Arial's place turns out to be an heirloom from Jakoby's family.
Where does this leave the mysterious gatekeeper/councilman?
I don't think the gatekeeper is Salamander because the slave trade seemed to be in full swing when he kidnapped dragon and her mum.
I suppose the gatekeeper is busy ruling and extorting the Red Queens Land sans Red Queen, but that would also make him too busy to be the mysterious councilman who recognises Dragon in Sutrium.
Some new evidence for Saresh as Salamander
[ spoiler] From pg 52 of the Sending "Jakoby had been born without blemish, her sister had been born with a deformed face and throat". I don't think Saresh's throat deformity has specifically mentioned before. But it explains how a female Salamander can have a deep voice.[ /spoiler]