I don't know if there is already a thread on this since I'm too lazy to look beyond the second page so sorry if there is.
I've just finished re-reading Obernewtyn since it's been so long since I've done so and as usual it got me wondering about what exactly Ariel's motives are. During the rest of the series it seems apparent that he's intent on discovering the weaponmachines for whatever evil twisted purpose but at the end of the first book he doesn't come across as being all that interested in where the map Vega and Alexi are after is and he just seems more preoccupied on making Rushton talk. Maybe it's just because he has a dislike for Rushton and an excuse to torment him isn't something he would want to pass up but then he seems to dislike Elspeth as well so torturing her should be just as amusing but I don't know it just seemed kinda odd that he kept trying to draw Alexi's attention back to Rushton.
Maybe he just didn't know all that much about what Alexi and Vega were after (I doubt this though) so he didn't have that much interest in it but I don't know. maybe I should re-read the rest of the series first before I start musing.
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Have you read the Stone Key? I think there is a relevant point in there that may offer some clue. Don't want to say though just in case you haven't read it yet.
Yeah I've read them all it's just been awhile so I'm exceedingly sketchy when it comes to details at the moment :P I would check it now 'cause I think I might know what you're on about but I don't have all my books on me <_<
Ariel's motives in Obernewtyn, in my biased opinion, are more clever than we might give him credit for. I think he didn't really want Alexi to find the weaponmachines, because he eventually wanted to track them down for himself. He was trying to distract Alexi with Rushton because even then he had some idea that Elspeth would be able to find them.
I would even go so far as to say that he suggested Cameo might be the one they needed because he knew she wasn't: Selmar was a close call, afterall, she had almost been able to tell them.
The only thing that bothers me about Ariel's actions in the first book is near the end when he says 'this is taking too long' and actually dials up the machine's intensity. Maybe at this point he thought he might cause Elspeth's mind to crack sooner, making her just like Cameo? Or maybe he figured he might still be able to beat Alexi and Vega to whatever location Elspeth divulged... Either way, it seems uncharacteristically impatient of him. Then again, I guess he was only 12 at the time, and he's obviously learned a lot since he left them.
I don't think it is a coincidence he ingratiated himself with Henry Druid after Obernewtyn, though, now that I've re-read the 1st book myself. There were a lot of hints that the Druid was looking for the weaponmachines as well. I think it's clear that, even then, Ariel was determined to have them. (Just in case anyone reading this has only read the 1st book.)
Wanderer Ward
14 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Rebel
Just a thought - are we certain that Selmar is dead? I know that they say Ariel killed her for sport but how does Alexi know thats the case? Did he see it, or did someone else, or did they just see the evidence? If so isn't it possible that he somehow smuggled her out to somewhere in the highlands instead and continued (or continues) to use her even in her broken state to try and find what he wants.
I don't really believe any of that is possible or plausible but its just a thought that came to me.
It does seem like something Ariel would do, doesn't it? By now, though, even if he did have her for a while, I'd guess she'd have died since. Or maybe she was his first null? Actually, come to think of it... when he brought her back to Obernewtyn after her first escape, the description of her was very null-like. I just noticed that. That could have been where the whole null thing originated...
Wanderer Ward
14 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Rebel
Oooh, you just summarised something that had been nagging at my mind Amashelle - the whole null-Selmar link was what made me wonder about her and Ariel in the first place.
It's an intersting, thought, isn't it? I mean, the idea that, even then, he was of a mind to conquer people so completely: and the idea that maybe he doesn't really need this 'machine' he allegedly uses to make people into nulls. It might be another aspect of his twisted empathy.
*hopes this is on topic enough not to annoy people*
Great topic :D
(spoilers for TSK only)
Just thinking, maybe the reason Ariel was trying to get Alexi to focus on Rushton was connected to his alliance with the Druid? Henry Druid knew of Obernewtyn and the people there, perhaps that is where he and Ariel met. Maybe he picked the Druid's brains and found that he thought Rushton knew where they'd be. Perhaps he'd told the Druid that he'd find out for him.
of course, since Alexi is Ariel's son, this seems like immediate betrayal, but I mean, c'mon - it's Ariel and he'll do whatever he needs to do if he thinks he'll benefit from it
Re Selmar as the first null - I love it. Perhaps he did something similar to his wolves too, to make them mad. Brr...what a horror.
Now that I think about it...the wolves mad behavior is similar to that which Rushton displays in TSK when he's trying to attack Elspeth. He programmed Rushton to go mad at a certain point, perhaps he programmed the dogs to do the same, that's why they couldn't reach their minds.
Maz I'm unsure about Selmar actually being dead, too. The circumstances are convenient enough that she could be alive somewhere, but then it's strange we didn't hear of rumors of a 3rd null in TKP. The only other one was a child which really, is probably Lidgebaby.
Ashlings' guildleader
14 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
But Min, The only reason Elspeth couldn't reach Rushton's mind in TSK was because he was wearing a demon band, it had nothing to do with his madness. I agree that the madness is very similar, but there has to be another reason why they arn't able to be beast spoken . . .Can Gavyn reach them?
I always thought that Ariel being Alexi's son was just a story for Ariel to get out of being slapped with the misfit title once he joined up with the Druid's people. I know some of their physical descriptions are analogous but I could never just believe it . . . *shrugs* If he os really Alexi's son then I don't think he would have been aware of it during Obernewtyn . . .
I'm pretty sure Selmar is dead, though I guess it is a possibility but I think it's rather unlikely. I don't really feel there would have been any reason to really keep her alive, although a talented misfit I don't think she would have been overly powerful after everything that was done to her.
I agree that the Ariel/Alexi relationship was hard to believe, especially while reading Obernewtyn. Neither reacts to the other in that way, even if they are similar physically, and neither had a problem with the torture stuff. It just never rang true for me, and surely there would have been rumors about something like that floating around Obernewtyn before the takeover, there were certainly enough gossipy informants. And Ariel is secretive enough that he wouldn't give the Druid, the Council, or the Herders the truth about being at Obernewtyn even if it was a good way to waylay their suspicions. Knowing his parentage would give people power over him, and Ariel has been very careful to avoid letting people control him ever since he left Alexi and Vega, both of whom he seemed to resent because they treated him like a servant.
As for the wolves, that's an interesting thought. Maybe he started his null research on them and expanded it to people later, using Selmar as his first human test subject.
I don't think Selmar is alive anymore, even if she was at the end of Obernewtyn. The things she would have gone through...
I think Lidgebaby might be A null, but probably not one of the ones that's been talked about so far. From what I understood, Ariel has quite a few of them, it was just Salamander who only had two aboard the ship during the sail back to Herder Isle. If Lidgebaby is a null, I don't see Ariel letting anybody else have access to him, because he would be one of the more valuable nulls. I think Ariel would keep him close by.
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
I might suggest a read of the new USA version of Obernewtyn to settle some of these questions. Its very interesting.
What do you mean Deb?? Have they been changing things on us <_<
*hugs her old 94 edition*
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
lol at the hugs. Yes Obernewtyn and Farseekers have been re-written for the USA publication. Love it!
14 years ago
Mon Aug 03 2009, 05:46pm
What what?? The horror!! :O *goes off to endeavour how to get a hold of these strange American editions so she can compare page by page*
How confusing, now everything I thought I knew could be wrong <_<
GASP I just realised - we never actually know WHO Lidgebaby is the son OF.
Since Ariel was with the Druid befre Lidgebaby was born (otherwise I'm sure baby would have affected Ariel's ability; and Ariel would havehad him killed); maybe Ariel could have fathered a kid - Lidgebaby?????????????
that's why lidgey has such POWER and it's a very coercive, undefineable power; as it it a blocking; painful experience on Talented people's minds.
Maybe Ariel is the one with the new Talent, since we don't really know what kind of power he has.
One word can change the entire meaning/interpratation of something though 8-|
The fact that Ariel would only have been around 13 makes me think that that is unlikely but it definitely is odd that we have no idea who Lidgebaby's parents were, though the fact that the druids seemed to have communal care of the children could even make that not an issue too.
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
It does say in Farseekers that his father is a Druid Acolyte and his mother had already denounced one baby, so i doubt if its Ariel.
The US version of Obernewtyn is good. It clears up a lot of the mistakes and makes some things much clearer overall. You can get it on ebay.
14 years ago
Tue Aug 04 2009, 02:47am
I agree that Ariel was a bit young to be fathering children when he was in the Druid's camp, but that might be my jealous biased kicking in, lol. Besides, I think Ariel would be too clever to be anything more than professional about his dealings with other people (especially Salamander, which I've heard sugested before). He might have been engaged to Erin, but he finished with the Druid before anything could come of that. *covets Ariel for herself*
*Clears throat* Um. Yes.
I have only ever read the North American version. I didn't realize it had been edited. I know I have two copies of the Keeping place and one of them is longer than the other: just little things that must not have meant much seem to have been cut from the 2nd copy I purchased. I doubt she would have changed anything important, though.
In the NA version, it seems pretty clear that Selmar is dead, and Alexi even comments on the barbarity of it, so I think he, at least, saw a body, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the end of the matter, does it?
That's an interesting thought, Min. I always just assumed Erin was one of the ones killed in the firestorm... I'm re-reading that book right now. Maybe I'll find something that hints to her being alive, though if she is with Ariel, I don't see her as having a particularly happy time of it. She was a means to an end, and Ariel betrayed the Druid already so I don't think they are on the best of terms anymore --- which means she might very well be a slave in Dragon's land....
I always assumed the beautiful woman representing Salamander was Salamander herself aka Jakoby's deformed sister who is either wearing a veil over the bottom half of her face or is benefiting from some creative coercion from Ariel.
But Erin would be a whole lot more interesting...
