You may or may not have already taken part in the Theories Challenges that we run from time to time on this message board. If not, the concept is that a member will post an Obernewtyn scenario, and during a time limit the other members have to "prove" that theory.
Eg: "Prove that Elspeth is the Destroyer and Dragon is the Kasanda Blood. Due on 5th Feb"
Then members need to twist their brains and come up with why this is possible, convincing the rest of the board.
Conditions: - Theory challenges can't be too outrageous. A little bit of silliness is ok, but the point of this is exercise is to get people thinking outside their own comfort zones for a plausible answer. - The original poster will need to judge who wins a round - whoever wins gets to ask the next challege. - No specific Rushton/Dameon bashing. It can be mentioned but really, it's been done to death in other threads - you can ask the poster questions about the theory - post your Theories Challenges responses in this thread.
Those of you who are already familiar with the concept might be asking "So? What's new?"
We've decided to award shiny guild points for entering a round, winning a round, and posting up the next theory, to keep things moving!
Points: 2 points per entry (eg, paragraph or so), 0 points if its just a single sentence. 2 points to the winner of that round. Extra 1 point to the winner for coming up with a new theory challenge - you'll have a week to come up with a new theory after it's announced that you've won a round.
So per round the maximum guild points you can earn is 5 points.
That's ALL?
Not quite We're going to be kicking off a new Theories Challenge every 2 weeks; the winners won't be setting a due date anymore. 5 points might not seem like much, but it'll form a steady trickle of incoming guild points over a couple of months.
We'll keep record of the pointage in this thread, and after a couple of months, add it to the guild totals.
A summary of the round, points, and winning entries for each round can be found here: Theories Challenges Winning Entries. Rounds 1 - 40 have been added to the Ongoing Guild Tally. You can read the theories and the winning entries at the link above.
#
Dates:
Theory Challenge:
Posted By/Guild:
Answered/Guild:
Won/Guild:
Points:
31
4 December - 18 December
How did Marisa Seraphim learn the location of the death weaponmachines, and why did she?
In The Sneding Elf travels to the Compound across the blacklands and finds an INES computermachine that wasn't put to sleep and has gone mad. Explain how Elspeth fixes the computer to return it to sanity and how this INES helps Elf in her quest.
Deb/M
Nefriit Huijari/Non Sian/A Arwen/D Bibliophile/M
Bibiiophile/M
A: 2 D: 2 M: 5 W: 0 noguild: 2
33
8 January - 22 January
Prove that Elspeth is neither the Seeker, nor the object of the beasts' prophesy and the gypsies' promises. Instead, she is simply a normal, if highly talented, Misfit. Include who the Seeker acually is and why.
Bibiiophile/M
Sian/A Arwen/D Amashelle/W
Sian/A
A: 4 D: 2 M: 1 W: 2
34
28 January - 11 February
In The Farseekers, Elspeth presumes that Darga is dead because she believed that the dog would never leave Jik, firestorm or no firestorm. However we now know that he must have, so; Why did Darga leave Jik?
In TKP Elspeth mentions her rescue of Kella, Domick and Jik from the Sutrium cloister when it was really Pavo not Domick she rescued from Aborium. Assume the error was intentional. Explain why Elspeth made the mistake and tie it to Domick's death in TSK.
Tonks/Ashlings
Arwen/Dreamies Sian/Ashlings
Sian/Ashlings
A: 5 D: 2 M: W:
39
13 May - 27 May
We know that Alexi was adopted by Michael Seraphim and that Ariel was brought to Obernewtyn as a misfit, but what is Vega's back story. Explain how, why and under what circumstances Vega came to be at Obernewtyn and how she came to hold such a position of power.
Sian/Ashlings
Min/Mystics Arwen/Dreamweavers Axe/Dreamweavers
Min/M
A: 1 D: 4 M: 4 W:
40
29 May - 11 June
Who would you vote in as the Leader of the Land out of anyone (dead or alive) in the Chronicles? Why?
In the last two books, Elspeth has found two cat brooches. Explain how these brooches are important to 'The Sending' and in what circumstances she will find a third one.
Prove that the mindstream is just an actual place people can 'see' and 'feel' through Talent. With this is mind, explain where it is and what significance it has to Talents and the Great White.
Fate/Mystics
mordalia/M Tonks/A Conrad K Cat/M
Conrad K Cat/M
A: 2 D: M: 7 W:
43
15 July - 29 July
Prove that Straaka was actually sent from the Agyllians to aid Elspeth, and that he needed Miryum to do it.
Conrad K Cat/M
Arwen/D Zieria/D Deb/M
Zieria/D
A: D: 6 M: 3 W:
44
6 August - 19 August
Imagine that Swallow gets a love interest in the next book. Who do you think it will be, and what will bring them together?
So just to reiterate, the Theories Challenge for this 2-week period is; "Prove that Miryum is still alive, and explain where she's gone." Due Date: 12th March.
...shucks
It's time for your treatment, seeeeriously. Join the Dollhouse: Cardiff movement...
Define 'alive'? sounds like a silly question, i know... But does 'alive' mean in the worldly, bodily sense where elspeth is 'alive', living and breathing; or is it just alive in a particular place and/or time, like the dreamtrails for instance? ok, so i've just been reading some stuff on dreamtrails, and i'm nitpicking on interpretation of the question... but bear with me. If 'alive' is not Elspeth's living world, then Miryum is most certainly 'alive' on the dreamtrails, as people have dreamed of her walking with Straaka, and walking tends to be something that alive people do! So to answer where she has gone: she either gave herself to the mindstream, and people see her via the dreamtrails; or her consciousness is living on the dreamtrails, where she is seen. After all, the dreamtrails are 'real' for those with Talent, so alive dreamtrail Miryum (however she got there) would be 'real'. As for her physical body, that is another matter entirely, but it would be wherever Straaka is, as being a chivalrous coercer knight and feeling indebted (is that how you spell it?) to him for saving her live, Miryum would stay with him. So not an exact geographic location, but that is where she is... How's that for outside the box?
Guild: Dreamweavers Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8721
(Don't expect any quotes, all my copies of the books are 13 hours by plane and a whole lot of money away )
Clearly, Miryum is alive and well. Elspeth, as I'm sure we all know, has a distinct habit of talking heaps about people who aren't really dead, and never mentioning those who are. Really, how many times did she mention Jes in the last two books, compared to how many times Matthew came up. It was all Matthew this and Rushton that and hey - it turns out neither of them are dead. Well, unless someone (*looks critically at the Agyllians*) is just planting dreams about Matthew left right and centre because they're bored, but you'd think they'd be more imaginitive. Hey, she even went on about Ariel heaps in the couple of books he was AWOL in, and low and behold if he isn't alive. However, we get about one reference per book, if we're lucky, to any of the dead characters - Jes, Cameo, Jik, Selma (that wasn't her name, was it? See, she's been gone so long I can't even remember her name properly!). Miryum was mentioned WAY too much for her to be dead. There's a certain force, let's call it Live-character Utterances for the continuation of the Danged plot (LUD for short), that exists in the books that causes Elspeth to think, and sometimes others to talk about, living characters and completely forget all those who are really dead.
And where's she gone? Wherever Elspeth needs to go at some key moment in The Sending, but may actually die unless someone (read: Miryum with ocassional comedic relief from Straaka) saves her. Probably the Red Queen's Land, she hitched a ride aboard a passing sea turtle cause all the dolphins were busy with Elspeth and swapping names.
Guild: Mystics Location: The Mystics Cavern Posts: 7106
Alot of reference was made to the fact that Sadorians like to be buried in Sador, and I don't think Isobelle would mention something like that if it wasn't relevant. (Can't give exact quotes as someone else has my books) No one in Sador seems to have seen or heard from Miryum after Straaka died, and neither has anyone from Obernewtyn. My theory is that Miryum hopes to return Staaka to Sador. Obviously she could have already, seeing the amount of time that has passed since she went missing, but I think that she won't give up until he's home. Coercers are prided for their stubborness.
Miryum could be having trouble getting to Sador, because it's not like they'd let just anyone on the boats going to Sador. Another way she could get there is the dangerous path that most people avoid because going the sea path is easier. But then again, as she has Staaka with her, she would either need to bury his body on land and take his possessions to bury in Sador, or she would need to take the easier route to take Staaka's body with her.
She could have also already buried Staaka's body in Sador as Sador is such a big place. I'm not sure this is as likely as her still travelling there but it is a possibility. In this case she could be wandering Sador's desert because she does not wish to face the misfits, as she would hardly get any peace from them.
"One of the kasanda had told her that the pair walked together still, though not under the moon or sun"
Supposing that Miryum is still alive, and that she's still walking with Straaka, it must be that she cremated Straaka. For I can't imagine her walking about with his now putrid 1-year-dead corpse. So she's walking around with his ashes - and burning a body would be in line with her knightly chivalrous code.
I think the kasanda usually is quite literal in their visions so the fact that they say that she's 'walking' & not 'ghosting' (or whatever dead souls do), means that Miryum really is WALKING around on the earth (with Straaka's ashes).
The other reason to think that Miryum is still alive is the next bit in the text "she deemed it to mean that they walked together in death". As a general rule, assumptions by characters tend to be wrong, especially if they're put so off-handedly.
Now the quote also said that Miryum was walking "not under the moon or sun" - so where is there no moon or sun? Underground, obviously. Maybe in a tunnel or cave or even a Beforetime complex like the library ruins.
How did she get there? Maybe she's staying in a cave until her knightly code deems her cleansed or reformed or whatever. Maybe she was on her way to Sador but came across a cave/tunnel/complex & stayed there. Or she got lost on her way to Sador but found a cave/tunnel/complex to stay in. Or she went to the caves above Obernewtyn for all of the above reasons. Or (and I'm really on a roll here) she was so grief-stricken that she went towards the blacklands intent on killing herself & joining Straaka but came across this striking Beforetime complex that she just had to WALK around. Ha ha!
I agree with Melephant I believe that Miryum has found somewhere maybe an isis crack and laid herself to sleep next to Strakka's body and is walking with him on the dreamtrails (no moon or sun there) and that would fit with what people have dreamed of her (as they dream of matthew) and what the Kasanda said also. I don't believe she would have killed herself because that would go against her chivalrous code it would be dishonourable to kill yourself and it would dishonour Straaka to kill herself in her mind because he gave up his own life so she could keep hers. I also think that she will pop back up in the books when Elf really needs her.
Pretend Elspeth, Pretend that you are clever, wise, brave, calm, courageous and some of the times you are able to forget its a pretence and for that little period you can forget your pain.
Guild: Dreamweavers Location: Blue Mountains, NSW Posts: 2797
Someone else has my book, so fogive me because I'm going to steal your quote:
"One of the kasanda had told her that the pair walked together still, though not under the moon or sun"
I'd interprut this a different way though. "Walked together still" could mean anything. It could be that she has some part of him with her. It could be that she keeps him in her heart. It could be that his spirit has refused to leave her and stays with her. Whilst I'm tempted to believe it means on the Dreamtrails. "not under the moon or sun" is just so specific. Not "Not on this plain", or "In another place" or anything that would traditional lead one to believe they mean the Dreamtrails. I'm inclined to believe the specifics are intended to mislead a little and do indeed mean underground. There are many possibilities underground. There's befortime complexes as we've seen, and there's also so many underground places in Sador itself, and I believe 100% that no matter where she is now, at some point she would have made it to Sador with Straaka's body or at least tried her damn hardest, so she could be in one of those caves. Another possibility (the one I'm most likely to believe) is this. Miryum is lost. Without focus. She feels like she needs to regain her honour. Sounding familiar? In a situation such as that who is likely to step in? Who is likely to take advantage of the situation? I say Miryum is alive and has been lead someone by the Agylians. Somewhere underground and somewhere where there will be a key moment in Elspeth's quest. A moment where Elspeth could live or die and Miryum has been sent there to tip the balance and pop up when she's needed most.
Guild: Ashlings Location: deep within this dank and univiting place... Posts: 4950
'Alive' may be something of a fluid concept. Beasts call death 'the longsleep', so who is to day that an existence only on the dreamtrails is death in itself? Miryum may have poured herself onto the dreamtrails in order to be with straaka. On the other hand, Miryum's continued exxistence, even on the dreamtrails may indicate that she is alive and hence that her role in the series is not yet finished. this is a mystery that cannot be left to lie unfinished.
I think that they may have travelled to the high mountains. Miryum is a coercer, so she would be able to get past obernewtyn, and stay in terrain that is familiar. Remember that straaka stayed with Miryum because he could not return to Sador without having acquired Miryum as a bondmate, so she may feel that returning him to his own land unbonded, even though dead, would be something of a dishonour to his memory (Miryum's sense of honour is not exactly rational sometimes). Also, most of her memories of him would be based at obernewtyn and it's surrounds, so she might wish to dwell in those memories. The fact that they are somewhere green on the dreamtrails suggests that they are in those types of memories. I think also, that Miryum will be there to help Elspeth in the high mountains later on (as that is where her destiny seems to lie...)
Guild: Dreamweavers Location: my swivel chair... Posts: 2704
Haven't read everyone elses theories but i stole the quote thats being metioned warning: random babbling follows
First off we can assume that the Kasanda who saw Miryum and Straaka walking together was some sort of furtureteller who has teh ability to see alternates to the current reality. Meaning they can see possible future paths or past things, the latter being less likey as the majority of futuretellers see the future (hence the name). So we can safely say that Miryum and Straaka walking together has yet to happen. So they can't be dead can they?
As for not being under the Moon or Sun... sure the dreamtrails sound like the most fun and appealing answer but its not really possible for two who cant or (in Miryums case) dont know how to probe their own minds and go that one step further and get onto the dreamtrails. Remember maruman shows elsepth how to consciously get onto them because she doesnt actually know and the only way for miryum to get both her self and straaka there would be to do the same, so if she doesnt know she cant do it.
The only other possible answer is that they are underground. Not just randomly underground though... underground in the EarthTemple. This is the only possible answer. How else would Straaka heal from his wounds and be able to walk? Miryum certainly isnt a healer, so help would have been recieved from the temple Guardians. Now if straaka truly was dead when miryum ran away with his body then no doubt a voice (strangely similar to Atthis' voice) told her to go to Sador because Cassy have left one of those machines you see on tv that they put on dead peoples chests in TV shows and shot them with electricity to jump start their hearts. Granted straaka would ahve had major brain damage but thats ok... love is unconditional... even if all they can do is stroll through an endless underground maze.
Really though, that sort of situation would suit Miryum just fine. Her disappearance with his body indicates that there was some sort of emotional response from her in the face of being saved only to see his life drain away. Its quite possible she fell in love with him and was silly enough not to see it. So off she rode to Sador, half dead man in her arms to be healed and no doubt bonded to later on so they could take romantic strolls through the vast caves of the Earth Temple. Would you want to go home or risk being seen in a place you know your former friends visit, if you'd stupidly ignored the one you love and harped on about chastity only to suddenly almost loose that life and decide to nick off so he can heal and you can do the bad thing with him? Man i wouldn't... imagine trying to explain that with out looking like a tool.
Guild: Ashlings Location: In a shack on a hill somewhere Posts: 402
"Prove that Miryum is still alive, and explain where she's gone."
So the first part of the challenge, that Miryum is still alive. This part is easy to prove because of what the kasanda said about Miryum: that the pair (Miryum and Straaka) walked together still, though not under the moon or sun" This idea of walking rules out Miryum being dead because as we all known from the OC, when people and beasts die they are absorbed into the mindstream and cease to possess any form of individuality and become nothing more memories within the stream. Therefore the fact that Miryum is still walking means she still possesses a body of some sort therefore she is still an individual and has not been absorbed by the mindstream i.e. she's not dead.
But where has she been? Where is this place that's not under the moon or sun? This and the fact that I am assuming Straaka actually is dead, tells me that Miryum must've been overcome by guilt, survivor's guilt and must've fled to the dreamtrails in her confusion and hurt similar to what Rushton and Dragon did and now is living within a false memory where Straaka is still alive.
How do I justify this? First of all, Miryum has a very rigid idea of honour as Elf has mentioned. She is a coercer knight and whilst it would be within her code of chivalry to die for the greater good, it would be impossible for her to accept the fact that somebody would die to protect her. Because in her eyes, her life isn't worth the loss of another. So because of the rigidity of her code, she is unable to accept what Straaka had done to her. She feels that she is unworthy of his sacrifice and this is compounded by the fact that Straaka died because of his love for her but yet she didn't love him back. This crushing guilt caused to accidentally flee to the dreamtrails.
Miryum is capable of going to the dreamtrails because she is a powerful coercer and has the ability to deep-probe strengthening that idea.
So her spirit form is now roaming the trails with a falsified memory of Straaka so that she can alleviate her guilt rather than to return to the real world and face what has happened.
But what about her real, physical body? I truly believe that Ariel has now possessed it. Because his futuretelling abilities would allow him to foresee her vulnerability and his twisted nature would make him see the oppurtunity of stealing another of Elf's allies/friends. He could be keeping her to use against Elf at a later point and could also be using his empathing/coercering to keep her trapped on the dreamtrails.
So this is my rambling argument about where Miryum is.
Fire on the mountain shall find the harp of gold; Play to wake the Sleepers, oldest of the old; Power of the green witch, lost beneath the sea; All shall find the light at last, silver on the tree
Y maent yr mynydddoedd yn canu, ac y m'aer arglywyddes yn dod
Ok this is my attempt to "Prove that Miryum is still alive, and explain where she's gone."
Firstly let me start of with the obvious backgroundy stuff... Ok so when Straaka died, Miryum took his body and fled, presumably to Sador to bury his body in line with Sador tradition.
Now this is where it becomes pure theorising... my bet is that she is still alive, though she may as well be dead to the world. The death of Straaka affecting her so much that she either continues to wander the desert of Sador or is stuck in the dreamtrails trying to reach him... so whilst she isn't technically dead, she might as well be because she is basically unaware of anything around her.
I think basically all she wants is to be with Straaka, and by sacraficing his life for her, she has sacraficed her life in the only available way she can, by seeking him on the dreamtrails- she wouldnt be able to kill herself to join him as it goes against all her codes of honour and chivalry.
Thank you everyone for entering!! There's so many fantastic theories, it was really tough picking a winner.
But it comes down to Ness of the Dreamies for her fantastic theory that she's got me believing now and also the fact that I had a giggle at her last line Congrats Ness! Take the stage! What challenge do you want us to do?
...shucks
It's time for your treatment, seeeeriously. Join the Dollhouse: Cardiff movement...
Guild: Dreamweavers Location: my swivel chair... Posts: 2704
Lol Thanks Min! I completely forgot I wrote that
Umm following the same structure as the first one; your challenge is to prove that Elspeth's killing ability is actually empathy and to explain what went wrong
Guild: Mystics Location: bombarded by uni stuff Posts: 3200
ok this is my first go at this sort of thing so don't expect it to be very good.
basic theory, elspeth overloads the body with lots of different feelings so much so that the brain shuts down because it can't deal with all these emotions, this causes the heart and lungs to stop thus killing the person.
the reason she has the ability to do this is because of her torture session on the machine. we know that it allowed her to heighten and use abilities she didn't know she had. one of these abilities was empathy but because she was in so much pain from the torture, her empathy ability was warped and heightened so much so that instead of being able control or even receive emotions, she is only able to output emotions, her ability is so strong it is difficult to control and not kill when she uses it.
i didn't realy think that through but i have to go so this will have to do.
That's a tough one Ness! The first time I read it, I laughed for it sounded so ridiculous!
But here goes...
Ok. so it's revealed in TSK (and no, there are no quotes for everyone to plagiarise from this time ) that Ariel is actually - shock, horror - an empath!! And that somehow he uses his twisted empathic abilities to manipulate people's minds - such as creating mental blocks in the One.
It's quite clear now that Elspeth may be the best Farseeker, and Coercer, and Beastspeaker - but that she seems to totally lack empathy. My theory is that she doesn't lack it - she's actually suppressing it! She hides her feelings & empathy in this dark corner of her mind & it festers & builds up power. Then when she gets a surge of emotion - it explodes out & it's actually the force of the suppressed empathic power that lashes out & kills people. Such as when she & Rushton are being threatened by Madam Vega - I'd say that's a pretty emotional time. Or when she & Kella & the rest of Obernewtyn (indirectly) are threatened by the Druid gatesman - she lashes out again.
The fact that Ariel can use empathy as a weapon lends credibility to the idea that Elspeth can use her (very) hidden empathy too.
Yes, I'm saying that Madam Vega & the gatesman were killed by love!!
Guild: Mystics Location: Seguing in the Void....for choca Posts: 4373
Ok..I said I wouldnt do this...but here goes (and appologies if i reapeat whats said..i havent read the other posts)
Elspeths Killing power is actually Empathy. The trouble is, Elspeth says she has never been able to tap into her Empathy skills, that she knows of.
When Elspeth's parents were burnt as seditioners, Elf was understandably distraut. Growing up with only her seemingly impartial older brother in a cold orpahan system, left Elf emotionally crippled. Her slow revelations of her life before Ober (revealed in infrequent and small snippits) indicates that she suppressed much of the hurt and anger she felt, along with the rest of her emotional output. It is during this suppression that her Empathic tallent was twisted into the killing power she now has.
When she uses her power against Madam Vega, its while her and Rushton are mind linked. The emotions elspeth feels for Rushton and the anguish being caused by the Zebkrhan breaking down her mental barriers awaken what she has suppressed.
The second and third time she uses it, is again in times of high emotions, racing for the cul-de-sac ahead of people who want her and her friends dead and escaping from the Druids encampment before they are caught and found out as Misfits by the fanatical Druid. Her fear and adrennalin seem to strenghten her killing power, and she has to work to restrain it, so it wont kill.
Based on the incidences above, it seems her killing power is almost part of Elf's fight or flight responce. Fear is a major factor in the ForF responce and thus, is an emotional responce, to a potential physical/emotional danger.
Too bad Psychology isnt big in Elf's time...it would prove she has Empathic tallents after all
hmm ok i havent done this before but here it goes. I would argue that Elspeth's killing ability is that of empathy, however nothing went wrong, it is only a different form of empathy. The main problem I have with the argument that it went wrong somehow is that Jes also displayed evidence of the killing power when the herders came to kill/capture him- Rosalinde tells us he used his mind to kill the herder. Thus i doubt Elspeth's power is a result of any particular instance twisting her empathy power, but probably something that she always had but only manifested itself in certain situations. (ie. it came from the same place as did all her other powers, wherever that may be). There were many other misfits that suffered hard upbringings, but none of them (as far as we know) have developed this particular power (although this doesn't deal with Arial i know). Thus the killing power has always been with her, along with her other abilities.
Ok now as for the hard part of explaining why its empathy. The first thing is probably the fact that Elspeth has so many other abilities, to which most people dont have all the combinations, that for her to be lacking some type of empathy might be make it hard when she tries to save the world (thats weak i know). Ok next point, is that when the power has manifested, it has been when she has been in high stress and emotional situations. She uses the killing power against Vega when she is afraid for both herself, Rushton and the knowledge of the machines. The same occurs when she is escaping the gatewarden at the Druid's camp. Without escaping, both Elspeth and the others would have been killed, and she had particular reason for hating the gatewarden because he was to be her bond mate.
Perhaps at the moment she is in trouble, all the fear and hatred she is feeling is projected at the other person when she uses her power, and kills them- just like when an empath projects love, or fear, but this is done in such a forceful and enhanced manner that it kills them. Her other powers, perahps coercian, may enhance this empathy into striking in a more devastating manner. Perhaps she is also projecting pent up emotion such as loneliness and saddness from her life, which may be a reason she doesn't seem able to express herself very well emotionally.
The other reason I think it's empathy is because of Arial's power. We know from TSK that this is a form of empathy, just different, perhaps warped, perhaps not, so I see no reason as to why there can't be any other forms of empathy. He also doesn't seem to be able to feel emotions as a normal empath, only project them, so this could also be true for Elspeth's ability, so whilst it is empathy, it is not one which allows her to feel emotion.
ok so sorry for the long, rambling response, have fun trying to make it out!
Guild: Ashlings Location: deep within this dank and univiting place... Posts: 4950
Well, let's start with established what we know. Feelings can hurt - dameon established that in obernewtyn. Feelings can hurt not just in the physical sense Dameon gets, but you can hurt yourself by allowing yourself to care for anything and then losing it. Elspeth knows this at the beginning of Obernewtyn, so she consciously represses what she feel for other people; she doesn't make friends easily and she keeps separate from them as she knows that any ties she makes must be easily broken. All through Obernewtyn, she pushes people away - she builds walls around herself. What she doesn't realise is that those walls are made from the mental equivalent of stone - hence her VERY strong mind shield.
when elspeth attacks vega, she feels the power coming from her belly - or later she feels it coiled in her belly. That isn't her power at all - that is her emotions. Have you ever heard the expression 'vent your spleen'? when you feel an emotion, you often feel it in your belly - or along your oesophegus (which is sometimes mistaken for pangs in your heart). What is happening is this. Elspeth has locked up her emotions, and ANY empathic power she may or may not have, and it has built up behind her walls like the pain does at the end of farseekers (I am assuming you all remember elspeth's explanation of the pain barrier). So when Elspeth attacks vega, it's the overloading of emotions behind the wall, and it shatters (not from the torture, but from the pain that the thought of loss of Rushton caused)firstly shattering vega's mind with the 'bricks' of her wall (elspeth imagines it as ploughing a furrow) then filling the void with emotion - and no human can take too much emotion - hence Vega's screaming.
(Jes had the same upbringing as Elspeth, and the same sort of isolation - remember Rosumunde complaining that he cut her off, even when he accepted his powers and made friends with the other misfits?)
you would assume that the killing power, being the release of the strong walls she builds around herself, would disappear once elspeth has allowed that she does care for people and obernewtyn, but that is not the case. elspeth is given a secret and there is nothing so divisive as a secret. Despite her best efforts, this secret builds walls between elspeth and those she cares about (you might notice that Elspeth never really likes Maryon, who KNOWS elspeth's secret - this is because Elspeth feels betrayed that someone else knows the secret and it wasn't the person she would choose to know, so she blames Maryon) so she either feels divided from, or resentful towards, everyone around her. She loves yet draws away from all those around her - EVEN at the end of TSK
In Farseekers, Elspeth uses some of her killing power on the guard at the Druid's camp. she thinks that it is muted because of lidgebaby's mind shield, but that isn't the case; it's weak because she hasn't really taken her task seriously yet and so the walls aren't very thick. By the time we get to Ashling and TKP, when she starts using it, Elspeth is allowing the isolation walls to really get strong again - her purpose is taking over her life - but she is able to control how much of the wall she throws at people. When elspeth uses her power in Ashling on dragon, she makes a mistake. she doesn't realise that Dragon has constructed a similar sort of barrier within her own mind, and so batters it with emotion. Dragon's mind is under stress anyway, being an empath and hiding old emotions, so the assault on her wall from BOTH sides sends her over the edge.
I don't think Ariel has anything to do with Elspeth's power - it is part of her own emotional baggage. Perhaps at the end of the sending, when all the secrets are out, she will lose the abitily - but Elspeth, being elspeth (and not particularly bright) will probably come up with some other explanation as to why her power 'disappears'.
Guild: Dreamweavers Location: Blue Mountains, NSW Posts: 2797
Poor Elspeth, burdened with an unwanted ability to kill when those around her are gifted with a much more welcome ability to simply read and manipulate emotions. So why has her ability manifested itself in such a powerful and deadly way? The simple answer she's just too strong. It is a fact in the Oberchrons that a mixture of Coercion and Empathy is very uncommon. This is because the two abilities just know that they are natural enemies. Coercion is not necessarily more powerful, but it is stronger of the two, more prone to aggression. Because of this when Young Talented Misfits find themselves blessed with both talents it is usually a quick internal battle before the Coercion simply squashes the Empathy. This battle takes place so early in life that Coercers now bereft of their Empathy don't even remember having it in the first place. In the case of those with both Talents, there could be many reasons both have survived. This could be due to a lack of strength on the part of the Coercion. Empathy being a less aggressive Talent does not seek to eradicate the Coercion. It merely seeks to protect itself and as a result the two end up coexisting in the same very unique Misfit. In other cases the problem is that the Talented child has developed their Empathic ability so much earlier than their Coercion that by the time it surfaces the Empathy is too strong to eradicate. So what went wrong with Elspeth then? Elspeth is so damn strong that when this battle took place in her own mind it wasn't a matter of clear winners. The power struggle between the two very strong Talents raged for much longer than it would in any other Talented Misfit. So long that the Empathy found itself being distorted by the battle. A constant attack from the Empathic ability took it's toll. The end result is as you know it. The Empathy was distorted so much as to be almost non-existent and certainly non-recognisable from the original. By all rights it should have died out, but it held on strong in a lower region of her brain, ready when needed and never completely wiped out. As a result of this long battle it can no longer be used in the same way and literally throws so much hatred and hurt at a person that it can kill them. It throws into the battle with another being all that it had been throwing at the Coercion. Not good. Couple that with it's close proximity to the Mindstream further distorting it and Elspeth has one poor messed up brain.
I'm new here but I'm giving this a go (please don't laugh). Elspeths killing power is empathy - which deals with emotional feelings -so heightened and powerful that it has become a physical force. We often say "sick with worry" or so sad our "hearts ached" or that a person "wounded us" with their words or "hurt" or feelings and then made us feel physically ill or depressed. In everyday normal people, feelings are able to produce physical effects on our bodies. Worry, anger, fear, joy - all effect our gastrointestinal tract, cardiovascular system, skin etc. I think that with Elspeth, who usually controls her feelings and keeps them hidden, when she is overcome by her emotions (usually anger) she "throws" out (projects) these emotions- and they have a hugely magnified physical effect on another person. Rather than she empathically picking up on THEIR feelings - she empathically forces them to feel what SHE'S feeling but a normal mind - or any mind less powerful than hers - cannot withstand the force of these emotions and actual physical damage is done. Imagine how you physically feel when you are very frightened. Now imagine how you would feel physically if you could somehow feel the fear of a thousand people. Elspeths mind is so powerful that when she uses the dark power she is sending the force of a thousand minds emotions empathically into to the mind of another. It's no wonder they can't survive it.
Elspeth and Rushton - why would you want her to be with anyone but her soul mate?
okay, I'm sorry if this is repeating anyone! Sorry for any incoherency, I started this rather early this morning on very little sleep ----- Ariel and Elspeth are connected as H’rayka and Innle. In a sense they are equals at the opposite ends of the spectrum. For Elspeth to be equal to Ariel, they need to possess similar Talents. We don’t know for sure all of Ariel’s Talents, but we do know he has his warped Empathy Talent.
We know that Elspeth has issues dealing with emotions and feelings, but maybe this is a result of the trauma of her life. She hasn’t exactly had an easy childhood. As a child I believe Elspeth has some vestiges of empathy, like with her other Talents locked within her mind. The one person she was close to then was her mother. In TSK, we see a glimpse of Elspeth’s childhood and the traumatic loss of her parents. Elspeth retreats within her own mind. Other than a small amount of coercing, which she used to protect herself, she made no other contact with her mind until Maruman.
Elspeth is a loner. She is the Seeker. She feels emotions make her vulnerable. With her traumatic childhood, I believe that her body is protecting herself by choosing not to access the emotions. She has blocked them in her mind.
Something she does feel strongly is the anger towards the people holding prejudices against the Misfits and beasts. Shaped by her experiences as a child, her empathy is twisted into the shape it takes now. It’s twisted into revulsion and pure anger towards such feelings. So powerful is Elspeth’s sense of justice and fairness that she has trouble controlling her hate towards these people.
The only times pre-TSK that we see Elspeth’s emotions become so strong are ones where she’s repulsed by the mistreatment of beasts and Misfits.
A couple of examples that comes to mind, in Obernewtyn, when Elspeth first discovers her killing power, it is her hatred of Ariel and his treatment of Cameo and Selmar and the revulsion towards him and his actions that first access the power.
In TKP Elspeth uses her killing power against the soldiergaurd mistreating his horse. It is her revulsion of this treatment and call the power from the depths of her mind.
Revulsion is an emotion. Therefore Elspeth’s killing power is her own twisted version of empathy.
(I haven't read everyone else's so sorry if this has all been said before)
The fact that Elspeth's killing power is empathy is something I've believed for a while now.
The clues to unlocking this fact is in the moments she uses the talent, the most descriptive of which can be found in TKP.
TKP, p560 wrote ... 'Fury ran through me like hot fire as I reached instinctively for my deadliest ability...'
It continues with Elspeth shaping a coercive probe, and covering it in her killing power, sending it toward the Soldierguard with the aim to stun him, when the killing power wrestles control.
TKP, p561 wrote ... 'It had been formed of uncontrolled fury and would respond to nothing else.'
Quite clearly, the 'killing power', as Elf knows it, responds to her emotional state. In Obernewtyn, it responds to her fear, and here in TKP, her anger. Anything that is invoked, or effected by emotional responses can be counted as an empathetic ability, hence the talent fundamentally is Empathy.
The other clue lies in the importance that all of Obernewtyn places on Empathy, also in TKP. It is highlighted that Empathy is the most powerful of all talents. It will be the talent that changes the world; through understanding and dreams - and Empathy is the only talent that is strong enough, or tuned enough, to get around the tainted static of the demon-bands. Elspeth's killing talent also capable of this;
TKP, p561 wrote ... '...the probe sheered through the demon band block and storm static as if they did not exist.'
So; undeniable evidence that the killing talent is Empathy, straight from the books.
As for what went wrong - I assume this means 'why isn't Elspeth's empathy like everyone elses'? Why haven't the Obernewtyn-ers detected this talent in Elspeth?
Because Elspeth doesn't want them to. She's not consciously blocking a talent; she's just doing what she's always done - suppressing her emotions. Because she suppresses her emotional responses to people, her talent is suppressed also. But in suppressing her talent, it does not mean that she does not feel - she bottles it up. Again this is clearly highlighted in TKP.
TKP, p561 wrote ... 'It fought to strike at the soldierguard along the worn trajectory of my hatred for all abusers of beasts'
Surely, we can all think of someone we know who bottles their negative thoughts and emotions up in real life. And everyone who bottles emotions eventually reaches breaking point, and 'explodes', to release the pent-up feelings. This is exactly what Elspeth does; hides her emotional response, until it's too strong for her to control any more.
In a sense, nothing has gone wrong, other than Elspeth's own nature that tells her she's not allowed to react emotionally to the world. It's her greatest flaw - but as she learns to control it, it could also be her greatest asset.
...shucks
It's time for your treatment, seeeeriously. Join the Dollhouse: Cardiff movement...
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